Osteen as heretic?

[tomchamp]

It's no secret that I like Joel Osteen and enjoy his sermons, not to mention his books. He's actually quite popular with atheists and agnostics. So, not to put too fine a point on it, but he seems to be better at bringing the word of God to unbelievers than his more rigid counterparts.

So maybe that's what's ticking them off.

Is he pro life?

 

[Pandora]

Great plan. That's some God you got there, 2A.

And I disagree with 2A on this.

I think the devil has the ability to manipulate and talk us into things. I don't know much about Pol Pot. I think he was just evil. But Hitler, I know he was raised in Catholic schools as a child. Both men were motivated by pride, control, power, and greed (to name a few), basically, the Devil won there.

But in 2A's plan, each victim of a rape/murder was put there in accordance with God's plan and I cannot accept that. It has to be evil because only all that is good comes from God.

 

[vraiblonde]

Is he pro life?

I'm sure he is, although I don't think I've ever heard him specifically say so. Osteen talks more about doing things that enrich your spirit, and avoiding things that are harmful. We can safely say that abortion harms the spirit (and if you don't believe me, ask any woman who's had one), so it's almost certain that Osteen is not a huge fan of abortion.

 

[tomchamp]

And I disagree with 2A on this.

I think the devil has the ability to manipulate and talk us into things. I don't know much about Pol Pot. I think he was just evil. But Hitler, I know he was raised in Catholic schools as a child. Both men were motivated by pride, control, power, and greed (to name a few), basically, the Devil won there.

But in 2A's plan, each victim of a rape/murder was put there in accordance with God's plan and I cannot accept that. It has to be evil because only all that is good comes from God.

You know little about Hitler.

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

You know little about Hitler.

Well you are not offering any contradictions to her claim.

Even if some of what she said is or is not factual account the point she made is valid.

That Hitler was an evil man by his own doing and Hitler was not serving God and was NOT doing part of God's master plan as 2A is claiming.

Many Christians like 2A are decieved into believing that all governments are blessed of God and so gov can not be evil and that is so very far from correct.

Being subject to Caesar (gov) and subject to Caesar's laws does not mean that Caesar is righteous.

 

[Hessian]

Non-believers have tunnel vision when it comes to events in History and therefore are quick to point out horrendous and wicked events/people --then Say that God has either lost control or was never in control.

What is wrong with this perspective?
How did America feel after Dec 7 1941? We were enraged, determined and I sure many were angry at God for allowing it to happen.
Oh?
What was the result after 4 years of bloody war?
Nations liberated, freedom spread, our nation turned back to church & faith after many dismal years in depression and war. Tyrants broken, prisoners freed.
So...the eventual outcome: which few people could foresee on Dec 8 1941 was eventual good.

Christ was born in a lowly stall, to a poor ostracized family, away from their scorned home town.--And people say WHY? He claimed to be the Messiah!
He should have been born in a palace..etc..etc.

No, He came, fulfilled dozens of ancient prophecies, and then was brutally crucified, buried...and rose again: conquering sin & death.

Only the unbeliever keeps falling back to the anguished "WHY??"
Those that believe in God's providence, omnipotence, omniscience, and transcendence...understand that "why"...does not even have to be asked.
He knows,...and that is sufficient,...

it is not up to us to challenge with "why?"

Our charge is to run the race...keep the faith...plant the seeds...wear the armor.-NOT to sort out events that He has ultimate power over.

 

[Pandora]

You know little about Hitler.

Ah, somebody reads my post. But JPC is right, you are not countering my claim with anything and if you knew history, you would know Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family as a youth, as a boy, he did indeed go to Catholic school. Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. So, what are you.... trying to point out here? :shrug:

I believe that the way we raise our children can either make or break a child. Lets take Hitler for example, if you know about his upbringing; you can clearly see how the seeds were in place for his psychopathic behavior. He might have been born in a Catholic family, but in no way were his parents behaving like Christians.

He was an evil man, clearly evil, but a man formed in a direction that was not God's way or in accordance to the Bible. But God promises us that even good comes from bad, even the worst of the worst, as Hitler was. So, I guess the question to think about is has any good come from Hitler's existence? (First thing to come to mind is the medical breakthroughs - how many lives did this research go on to save?)

If Christians believe that we zap out of this life and to an afterlife of peace, then all of this pain, and all of our tears, will have a purpose in the end? Right?

 

[Marie]

Great point Pandora! Some people need the solemn voice of a Priest. Others need the dynamic uplifting messages of Joel.

It makes no difference what gets you there.

Joel’s message is man centered, you said it yourself feeling good about ones self. Our thinking is to be on God not ourselves. We are to die to self!

Joel’s father was a prosperity preacher (a heretic in his own right) and Joel admits he was never called to preach the gospel but rather than let his daddy’s business die with him he decided to go from sound guy to preacher. So keep in mind his father was preaching a perverted Gospel by self admission he was talented enough to do that so he just talks about ways to build up the self like his new book Become a Better You: 7 Keys to Improving Your Life Every Day.
The gospel of self esteem is in direct conflict to what the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches about relying on God, and the body disciplining and uplifting one another.

Joel’s dangerous little prayer of salvation is going to send more unsuspecting souls to hell. I call that very dangerous and not a man to pat on the back for making sinners feel secure in a false hope of salvation.

People will always love to have their ears tickled though and hear what they want to hear!


<DIR>Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
</DIR>

 

[Marie]

I'm just covering myself, just incase I don't get in, I am special, and my chances are pretty good!

When you get truley saved you will know and your sins will be paid for past present and future.

Talking about hell isnt a scare tatic, its reality and you have to know how God see all of us and judges us, not the same way man judges us. By Gods standards the most holley person on earth never comes close to measuring up, thats mans idea, but its ok Christ paid that debt to make you worthy in the sight of God.

 

[Marie]

the work [/B]of the Lord? .

No their place is as a shepard which has a lot of dutties that sadly most pastors pick and choose and do those they like and neglect the rest. Woe is to them, as they will be held accountable!
They are to proclaim the gospel rightly devining the word of truth. In other words they are to present Gods word (not there topical sermon) our pastor reads the word of God than explains it as we read over it a second time, explaining things so we dont misunderstand what we read. Get this he even does a question and answer period after certain sermons.
A pastor is to watch over his sheep he should know more than just your name so he can help/relate to you.
He is in the end responsible for what gets taught in his church even if someone else administers that function.
He is responsible to teach you what that demonation believes so you understand it and how it differs from others!
He is responsible for the spirtual health of his congretation!
He is responsible for explaining to his membership what is required of them in service to the church as well as to each other.
He has a responsibility to the community to be available to them and to have his church assitt in time a need, to be a becon of light.
These are just a few off the top of my head but as you can see its more than collecting his pay and the rent money and making you feel good so you come back next week with an offering!
If a pastor that knows of sin in his congretation and does not preach against it (for fear they will leave) or rebuke those folks in private he is derlict in his dutties.
He is responsible that the worship service is to exalt God and bring honnor and glory to God, not make it like Starbucks, the circus, or the movie theater or a concert hall.
To bring honnor and Glory to God and eddify the believers. Not build a model on seekers. He should however present the gospel, for those he does not know there spirtual condition.
It's the congretations job to go out and win souls and bring them in not intice the lost in, and then feed them what they want to hear!

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

When you get truley saved you will know and your sins will be paid for past present and future.

Talking about hell isnt a scare tatic, its reality and you have to know how God see all of us and judges us, not the same way man judges us. By Gods standards the most holley person on earth never comes close to measuring up, thats mans idea, but its ok Christ paid that debt to make you worthy in the sight of God.

So what do you say if I accept the gift and I am saved and yet I do not believe in Hell so must one saved believe in Hell or not?

Plus, since I make the choice and the choice is mine as it is for any other person to be saved, then when I get there and if I were to find out that Jesus and God have other people burning in torment in a Hell then I will take my choice back and I choose to go join my fellow sinners in Hell because I will never ever serve any tyrant monster as my God.

So does once saved / always saved mean we must believe in Hell? and accept the brutality after we see it for real? I say not.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Great plan. That's some God you got there, 2A.

Yes. God is great and glorious and far beyond any human understanding. He creates the great and small. Hitler was used to persecute the Jews. It had to be done to fulfill prophesy.

Isaiah 65:12Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Weren't the Jews numbered in the death camps? Why yes, I think they were. The word translated sword can mean death or destruction. The persecution of the Jews had to happen in order for the nation of Israel to be "born" as it was in "one day."

Isaiah 66:6-9

6"A voice of uproar from the city, a voice from the temple,
The voice of the LORD who is rendering recompense to His enemies.
7"Before she travailed, she brought forth;
Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
9"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD.
"Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God.

Humans may not understand God's plan and methods, but "clay pots" don't have much say in what the Potter does.

 

[2ndAmendment]

It's no secret that I like Joel Osteen and enjoy his sermons, not to mention his books. He's actually quite popular with atheists and agnostics. So, not to put too fine a point on it, but he seems to be better at bringing the word of God to unbelievers than his more rigid counterparts.

So maybe that's what's ticking them off.

Or maybe he is doing a little ear tickling.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Like I said, I don't know because I don't listen to him.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And I disagree with 2A on this.

I think the devil has the ability to manipulate and talk us into things. I don't know much about Pol Pot. I think he was just evil. But Hitler, I know he was raised in Catholic schools as a child. Both men were motivated by pride, control, power, and greed (to name a few), basically, the Devil won there.

But in 2A's plan, each victim of a rape/murder was put there in accordance with God's plan and I cannot accept that. It has to be evil because only all that is good comes from God.

Evil is not of God, but He does allow it to befall us. If you disagree with me, no big deal, but scripture supports what I have posted.

Romans 13:1-7

Be Subject to Government
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

God let Paul be cast into prison and be taken to Rome at the command of Caesar. Did Caesar give Paul a warm cheery welcome or did he toss Paul into prison and bind him in chains? Was Paul doing the will of God? Yes. Was Caesar the ruler of Rome? Yes. Why was Caesar in power? See verse 1 above. Caesar was there for the express purpose of bringing Paul to Rome so the Paul would have the opportunity to testify to the Romans and eventually die for his faith as additional testimony. It was God's plan.

God allowed the Romans to crucify Him as Jesus. Did He have to? No. He could have called down a legion of angels to slaughter the Roman cohort. Satan thought he was winning by influencing the Jews and the Romans to put Jesus to death. But it was all part of God's plan. If Jesus had not died on the cross, He would not have been resurrected. He would not have ascended into heaven. He would not be our Savior. So God allowed Caesar to come to power and conquer Israel and allowed the Jews to petition Pontius Pilate to put Jesus to death. It was all part of the plan.

The current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are all part of the plan. I really think the Muslims will conquer the world. I suspect that scientists will create life in a test tube and declare themselves to be like gods and mock God and creation.

Do I understand God's plan. No. I don't have a clue, but I am secure that God knows what He is doing and I trust Him to do it according to His schedule and it is my duty to die to self and submit to His way of doing things. It is all part of having the faith of a child. I still question and say, "Why?", but I am still not fully child like yet.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Ah, somebody reads my post. But JPC is right, you are not countering my claim with anything and if you knew history, you would know Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family as a youth, as a boy, he did indeed go to Catholic school. Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. So, what are you.... trying to point out here? :shrug:

I believe that the way we raise our children can either make or break a child. Lets take Hitler for example, if you know about his upbringing; you can clearly see how the seeds were in place for his psychopathic behavior. He might have been born in a Catholic family, but in no way were his parents behaving like Christians.

He was an evil man, clearly evil, but a man formed in a direction that was not God's way or in accordance to the Bible. But God promises us that even good comes from bad, even the worst of the worst, as Hitler was. So, I guess the question to think about is has any good come from Hitler's existence? (First thing to come to mind is the medical breakthroughs - how many lives did this research go on to save?)

If Christians believe that we zap out of this life and to an afterlife of peace, then all of this pain, and all of our tears, will have a purpose in the end? Right?

You are missing that God is in control even of folks like Hitler. God used the Nazis to persecute the Jews so that Israel could be born again. God allowed 9/11 I think as a wake up call to the United States. More people started going back to church after 9/11 than had been in church for years. Some of them are still going.

The Israelites are God's chosen people. How many times in history has God used various people to conquer them to try to bring them to their senses and back to worship of Him? Lots. The Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Muslims, Nazis to name some I can remember right away. There were others.

God want humans to rely on Him totally without question. He will keep doing what He will to accomplish His plan until the day Jesus returns.

 

[2ndAmendment]

So what do you say if I accept the gift and I am saved and yet I do not believe in Hell so must one saved believe in Hell or not?

Plus, since I make the choice and the choice is mine as it is for any other person to be saved, then when I get there and if I were to find out that Jesus and God have other people burning in torment in a Hell then I will take my choice back and I choose to go join my fellow sinners in Hell because I will never ever serve any tyrant monster as my God.

So does once saved / always saved mean we must believe in Hell? and accept the brutality after we see it for real? I say not.

God knows your heart. He already knows you will reject Him if you do.

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

You are missing that God is in control even of folks like Hitler. God used the Nazis to persecute the Jews so that Israel could be born again.

It is that kind of violent mentality that can see our Father God burning His children in a Hell fire and see that as okay and loving.

Where it comes to Hitler I say we can see the true God on D-Day with the allies attacking the Germans and later saving the Jews and in no way was the true God controlling Hitler and butchering Jews as part of God's plan.

This 2A has interpreted God by his (2A's) own violent driven mentality and he is far from correct.

 

[Pandora]

Evil is not of God, but He does allow it to befall us. If you disagree with me, no big deal, but scripture supports what I have posted.

^ No need for me to disagree, you pretty much summed up what I said in that sentence; yet, I couldn't find the right words to say it.

My husband and I both work extensively with victims of crimes, as you well know, and often, these victims are innocent children who didn't deserve what they were a victim to. And sometimes a victim is somebody who just happens to cross the path of somebody who has clearly followed a path of evil (drugs/addictions/stealing/robbing/raping/murdering) to maintain an evil lifestyle or thoughts (or both). I realize God can stop one from being a victim but what if we just gave our children whatever they wanted? Would they learn work ethics or the value of money? If God stopped us from being a victim, we wouldn't understand forgiveness, overcoming those powerful emotions that can take hold of us and destroy us, if we allow it. I understand that. I understand God is in control. God could have taken life away from Hitler, yet didn't, and he gassed people (including innocent little children). And I have to remember that God hates sin, ALL SIN, why?

Because he knew, he saw, how destructive even the smallest of sins can be.

 

[Kain99]

This is not my interpretation of Hitler at all. I do believe in Evil, and I attribute all atrocites to Evil itself.... Not God.

In my heart I trust, that God hated Hitler as much as the world did.

I belive that God bleeds.

 

[2ndAmendment]

It is that kind of violent mentality that can see our Father God burning His children in a Hell fire and see that as okay and loving.

Where it comes to Hitler I say we can see the true God on D-Day with the allies attacking the Germans and later saving the Jews and in no way was the true God controlling Hitler and butchering Jews as part of God's plan.

This 2A has interpreted God by his (2A's) own violent driven mentality and he is far from correct.

God does everything for His own purpose. He even allows your inane posts.