Our resident Pagans

[b23hqb]

You asked if many Christians did vote for Obama and I stipulated that they did. :shrug:

FWIW:

Forty million Christians voted for Obama

​

Evangelicals put Obama over the top

​

Good article about the evangelicals. I especially like the sentence near the end about so many "playing church". That has been my point for decades about peeps that call themselves "christians" but certainly show no evidence of it. The way many of them vote is convincing to me they are hypocrites.

 

[Hessian]

Good analysis...

Pelosi...Catholic?
Reid...Mormon?

Just convenient labels that mean nothing...and most religious leaders give them a pass too. None are willing to Confront. Excommunicate. Heck Pastor Rick Warren gave him a beaming thumbs up years ago...has he ever said he was wrong?....Um Pastor,...you were shallow & blind. Good job.

"Christian" Blacks voted based on color,...not the core tenets of their faith. I do not know what would wake them up other than MLK coming back from the grave.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Good analysis...

Pelosi...Catholic?
Reid...Mormon?

Just convenient labels that mean nothing...and most religious leaders give them a pass too. None are willing to Confront. Excommunicate. Heck Pastor Rick Warren gave him a beaming thumbs up years ago...has he ever said he was wrong?....Um Pastor,...you were shallow & blind. Good job.

"Christian" Blacks voted based on color,...not the core tenets of their faith. I do not know what would wake them up other than MLK coming back from the grave.

In your judgment, what does one have to do to demonstrate their "Christianity" to your satisfaction?

 

[Hessian]

In your judgment, what does one have to do to demonstrate their "Christianity" to your satisfaction?

Instead of writing it out....
1) Apostle's Creed
2) Nicean Creed
3) Augsburg or Heidelburg confession...even Westminster Catechism. (There are slight differences but they should not stir up the faithful)

its not really a matter of "my" satisfaction....I didn't make up my own version. It is the orthodox version of traditional, Bible-based faith.
Not Social gospel, unitarian, universalist, new age, etc. One is NOT born Christian,...one does NOT become a Christian by joining a church or attending 3 times a year, or donating money to the Knights of Columbus...or owning a KJV Bible...or being "good".... or being sprinkled as an infant.---NONE of that makes a Christian.

 

[Radiant1]

Christianity existed before the bible did; ergo, "bible-based faith" is not traditional in any real sense of the word, and the Heidelburg Confession wasn't written until **1563**. CleanTheSlate, don't let him fool you. It really does come down to his satisfaction in his mind, but I suspect you already knew that.




I'm not an Obama fan, but I don't hold it against him for his lack of church service attendance. I will, however, hold it against him if he doesn't uphold the Constitution. He's our president, not our preacher.

 

[Hessian]

Radiant,...it is not about dates.
It is about orthodoxy.

I count a few Catholics as close friends,...have deep admiration for a local Lutheran minister, have been a member of Baptist, Grace Brethren, Presbyterian churches, married a Pentecostal. SO>>>> what it really comes down to is the core tenets of Christianity. Minor disagreements? yes,....but EACH of those denominations have a statement of faith, and an expected practice of said faith. If one claims to believe, and then pursues other beliefs, or disregards God's teachings, misinterprets scripture, or mocks the faithful...he/she is a heretic, and CANNOT legitimately claim to be a Christian.

JPC and obama have the same bemused view of Christianity. And both are heretics.

 

[Radiant1]

Radiant,...it is not about dates.
It is about orthodoxy.

I count a few Catholics as close friends,...have deep admiration for a local Lutheran minister, have been a member of Baptist, Grace Brethren, Presbyterian churches, married a Pentecostal. SO>>>> what it really comes down to is the core tenets of Christianity. Minor disagreements? yes,....but EACH of those denominations have a statement of faith, and an expected practice of said faith. If one claims to believe, and then pursues other beliefs, or disregards God's teachings, misinterprets scripture, or mocks the faithful...he/she is a heretic, and CANNOT legitimately claim to be a Christian.

JPC and obama have the same bemused view of Christianity. And both are heretics.

It's your listing of the Augsburg Confession et al that I take issue with. We could get into who determines what is orthodoxy and what is or is not a misrepresentation of scripture, but that's been done to death on this forum. Suffice it to say, I think who you deem a Christian or not is indeed a matter of your personal satisfaction. And on that, I'll say no more.

 

[PsyOps]

The question was whether or not Christians put him in office, ie, were the deciding factor and, clearly, they were not.

No, I was answering to your comments:

Why blame voters? Christians didn't vote for him?

Not so? Many Christians did vote for him?

One of my sources stated that 40 million Christians voted for Obama. Had those not have voted for him he would have certainly lost.

 

[Hessian]

No, I was answering to your comments:


One of my sources stated that 40 million Christians voted for Obama. Had those not have voted for him he would have certainly lost.

If those 40 million "Christians" actually did their civic duty by studying the man's behavior, speeches, interviews, and associates (ie Dreams of my Father)...they would vote him solely based on naive wishful thinking, or race, or an actual desire to damage America's reputation, economics, leadership. They honestly could NOT endorse a candidate of such sketchy reputation.

AND ministers who glad-handed this impostor should consider resigning or at least explaining in depth why they were so easily deceived.

Christians who stayed home in 2012 could have voted Constitution party, Pro Life party, or at least pull the lever for Men/Women of Godly character and thus have a larger impact on the legislatures & governor races. They were lazy, and wasteful with a privilege that was earned on their behalf.

 

[Hessian]

Now,...I have a long term friend who is a believer, active in church, etc...and firmly supports obama.

On what grounds?

A hazy belief that government should meet the needs of all its citizens. And since obama promised Hope & Change,...he fell for it. Stupidly, he & his family did it again in 2012 because of the fear of those "Corporate" Wall St Republicans who do not care for all the little people.

So, Mr Pro-Liberal Christian,....how do you align Christ's endorsement of LIFE with the Pro-Death obama? (Who praises Planned Parenthood for doing such good work)
How do you align with Government Socialist redistribution instead of aligning with the benevolence of the Church?
How do you justify the racist rants of obama's pastor? and he soaked it in for 20 years?
How do you accept his non-attendance of church for the first 4 years of his "presidency" while vacationing & golfing as the economy was faltering?
How about his reputation for lying?...Bother you at all?

So,...my Liberal Christian friend (currently mourning the loss of Cuomo) blithely brushes by all these objections with a innocent "He means well"...or 'We all have faults."...or equally bizarre "He is a good family man."

REALLY?...What a fascinating detachment from actually living by faith, and an endorsement of Machiavelli & J S Mill.

 

[b23hqb]

Now,...I have a long term friend who is a believer, active in church, etc...and firmly supports obama.

On what grounds?

A hazy belief that government should meet the needs of all its citizens. And since obama promised Hope & Change,...he fell for it. Stupidly, he & his family did it again in 2012 because of the fear of those "Corporate" Wall St Republicans who do not care for all the little people.

So, Mr Pro-Liberal Christian,....how do you align Christ's endorsement of LIFE with the Pro-Death obama? (Who praises Planned Parenthood for doing such good work)
How do you align with Government Socialist redistribution instead of aligning with the benevolence of the Church?
How do you justify the racist rants of obama's pastor? and he soaked it in for 20 years?
How do you accept his non-attendance of church for the first 4 years of his "presidency" while vacationing & golfing as the economy was faltering?
How about his reputation for lying?...Bother you at all?

So,...my Liberal Christian friend (currently mourning the loss of Cuomo) blithely brushes by all these objections with a innocent "He means well"...or 'We all have faults."...or equally bizarre "He is a good family man."

REALLY?...What a fascinating detachment from actually living by faith, and an endorsement of Machiavelli & J S Mill.

They, these so called "christians" do not believe in what they claim to be. Ignorance is what got Obama reelected. Ignorance in so many Protestants not voting at all is what got obama reelected.

The "christian" voting block, on an individual level, is to blame. Those so called "christians" need to fess up.

Christians have met the enemy. And they are us.

 

[Larry Gude]

Question to anyone who cares to respond;

Do you consider yourself an American first and a Christian second?

Or do you consider yourself a Christian first, an American second?

 

[b23hqb]

Question to anyone who cares to respond;

Do you consider yourself an American first and a Christian second?

Or do you consider yourself a Christian first, an American second?

Christian first - that is eternity.

American/US citizen second - that is merely temporal.

 

[hotcoffee]

Christian first - that is eternity.

American/US citizen second - that is merely temporal.

Me too! Christian first!

Daddy use to tell us .... It's God... then family.... then country....

 

[Larry Gude]

Christian first - that is eternity.

American/US citizen second - that is merely temporal.

Merely temporal.


Absent the United States, how is Christianity doing around the world?

 

[b23hqb]

Merely temporal.


Absent the United States, how is Christianity doing around the world?

No doubt there are countries that are stronger Christians as a whole than in the US, specifically China and India, where persecution, real persecution like death in the most horrible ways and incarceration, is a way of life for them. I've heard from missionaries in those countries that there is no doubt that there are more born again Christians in each of those countries alone than in North America. Africa is thriving as well, and news reports from the last decade show the persecution they face on a daily basis.

The Bible states clearly that one "must be born again" to achieve salvation. Sadly, Europe as a whole, and much of North America, do not fall into that category. I know that is off topic, but really not.

 

[Larry Gude]

No doubt there are countries that are stronger Christians as a whole than in the US, specifically China and India, where persecution, real persecution like death in the most horrible ways and incarceration, is a way of life for them. I've heard from missionaries in those countries that there is no doubt that there are more born again Christians in each of those countries alone than in North America. Africa is thriving as well, and news reports from the last decade show the persecution they face on a daily basis.

The Bible states clearly that one "must be born again" to achieve salvation. Sadly, Europe as a whole, and much of North America, do not fall into that category. I know that is off topic, but really not.

No, that's on topic. My premise is that the US is the cornerstone of Christianity in the world and perhaps I am totally wrong, that Christianity would be better off without the US and our foundation of religious freedom.

 

[Bustem' Down]

No, that's on topic. My premise is that the US is the cornerstone of Christianity in the world and perhaps I am totally wrong, that Christianity would be better off without the US and our foundation of religious freedom.

I believe most western countries have religious freedom, so we aren't that special in that regard anymore.

 

[b23hqb]

I believe most western countries have religious freedom, so we aren't that special in that regard anymore.

Especially countries in Europe that are allowing their laws and religious freedoms to be usurped by Muslims and their demands for Sharia. See how freedom of religion is working there? The majority caves into the minority, and lose their rights of religion by being told what they can say, believe, and stand up for, except for concerning Islam. Islam trumps all.

 

[PsyOps]

Question to anyone who cares to respond;

Do you consider yourself an American first and a Christian second?

Or do you consider yourself a Christian first, an American second?

There is no America without God. God has to be first.