the moral chicken and egg

[This_person]

i see it just fine, and i think that heaven and hell are your carrot and stick, while the atheist have no such carrot or stick, its plain and simple.

so you are doing things morally for the selfish reason of going to heaven/notgoing to hell.

You believe that's why people do things. That doesn't make it so.

 

[toppick08]

apparently we have found one of the ten........



seriously, you can't be saying that we can't prove it wrong ADN that you dont need to prove it right in the same sentence?

Either we both have to prove our point or neither do. So if you want to claim its right becasue its right, then i have to say its wrong because it is full of things we know can not happen. It is either a fake or lies, you will never prove that your grey haired man in the sky exisits.

Prove it(Christ) wrong. What logic proves your beliefs correct.

 

[tommyjones]

You believe that's why people do things. That doesn't make it so.

its your argument that you have been repeating all day. i have just applied it correctly to the situation that acutally has the stick and the carrot.....

 

[tommyjones]

Prove it(Christ) wrong. What logic proves your beliefs correct.

why, you haven't proved anything, or even gotten to your point about happiness and other religions.


and i never said christ was wrong, only that the bible is written by men and that because we are all falliable, then the bible is necessarily the same.


and what was that point about happiness and religion again?

 

[toppick08]

its your argument that you have been repeating all day. i have just applied it correctly to the situation that acutally has the stick and the carrot.....

The Prize(carrot) is in the hearts of all men. You either take it or not. Read Proverbs and it will guide all of us on happiness. Semantics are also the work of the Devil......I will continue to pray for all athiests and agnostics.

 

[This_person]

its your argument that you have been repeating all day. i have just applied it correctly to the situation that acutally has the stick and the carrot.....

My argument that I've been repeating throughout this thread is that there is a dictionary difference between a moral and a good deed. A moral comes from some other foundation that society's - not a custom nor law - and therefore is semantically different than acting "good".

My point regarding a moral act for someone is that it does not happen because of a perceived reward, or threat of perceived punishment. A moral act is done for it's own reward - that of glorifying the religion that gave the foundation for the morality.

Again, i point to the raped girl being punished. Punishing her was the correct moral action of that religion. It is abhorant to mine. Both are moral concepts. Because they have a foundation of right and wrong rooted in something other than custom or law.

I am NOT saying that someone does a nice thing, therefore they are moral. I am NOT saying someone is religious, therefore they are moral. I am saying that when one does something because they believe it to be right - and that "right" is rooted in something other than custom, law, etc. - they are acting with a moral. When someone does something because society taught them what "good" is, that's not moral. No foundation bigger than custom.

And, scene.

 

[toppick08]

why, you haven't proved anything, or even gotten to your point about happiness and other religions.


and i never said christ was wrong, only that the bible is written by men and that because we are all falliable, then the bible is necessarily the same.


and what was that point about happiness and religion again?

You also can't prove the Holy Bible wrong.

 

[toppick08]

You also can't prove the Holy Bible wrong.

 

[Xaquin44]

what?

he's probably afk.

I was.

 

[toppick08]

what?

he's probably afk.

I was.

 

[Xaquin44]

....

 

[toppick08]

....

 

[Xaquin44]

ok, now I'm confused lol

 

[Midnightrider]

My argument that I've been repeating throughout this thread is that there is a dictionary difference between a moral and a good deed. A moral comes from some other foundation that society's - not a custom nor law - and therefore is semantically different than acting "good".

My point regarding a moral act for someone is that it does not happen because of a perceived reward, or threat of perceived punishment. A moral act is done for it's own reward - that of glorifying the religion that gave the foundation for the morality.

Again, i point to the raped girl being punished. Punishing her was the correct moral action of that religion. It is abhorant to mine. Both are moral concepts. Because they have a foundation of right and wrong rooted in something other than custom or law.

I am NOT saying that someone does a nice thing, therefore they are moral. I am NOT saying someone is religious, therefore they are moral. I am saying that when one does something because they believe it to be right - and that "right" is rooted in something other than custom, law, etc. - they are acting with a moral. When someone does something because society taught them what "good" is, that's not moral. No foundation bigger than custom.

And, scene.

actually, you are describing a cultural effect when you talk about the raped girl.

religion is a custom, as in your religious customes, my religious customes and the other religious customes. It is a cultural phenomenon......


also i contend that it is morally wrong, but culturally accepted.

 

[bcp]

I dont know about no chicken and egg beyond the dinner and breakfast deal, but I can tell you these few simple things.
Jesus is the only way to Salvation. Its not complicated or explained poorly in the Bible, its very clear and there for all to read. God made it simple so that people would understand without much of a problem.

Next The Bible outlines certain morals, or ways to treat others, this is true, but I also think that people without a religion have the capacity to treat others with respect and fairly.
Being without Christ in your life is not a certainty that you are going to be ignorant to others. It only means that you will not enjoy an everlasting life with Christ in Heaven when you pass away.

I have met people that claim to be Christians yet treat others like the soil on the bottom of their shoe, and I have met atheists that would give you the shirt off of their back if they thought you needed it.

I just happen to be a Christian (a poor one) that tries to treat others with respect. (except for JPC and illegals,)

 

[This_person]

actually, you are describing a cultural effect when you talk about the raped girl.

religion is a custom, as in your religious customes, my religious customes and the other religious customes. It is a cultural phenomenon......


also i contend that it is morally wrong, but culturally accepted.

You're in the right neighborhood. The culture comes from the people in it (obviously), and the people in it have religious beliefs. This is the whole point that started this discussion in another thread - I believe athiests in America have what they consider morals because of who they're around. They accept as right, and reject as wrong, those principals of the 83% of the population that is Christian. That's why even an American atheist sees what happened to that poor girl as wrong.

However, religious customs are customs of the religion. Religion is not a custom, religion has customs.

 

[Xaquin44]

Religion is not a custom, religion has customs.

Certainly religion is a custom. I mean if you travel to some other country, you'd see people in their religious garb as it is their custom ....

etc. etc.

Think of all the prayers you say in church .... they've been said for 2,000 years because it's customary to do so.

edit: whoops I missed part of the point .... Religion is in and of itself a custom simply by the fact that it was created to be. It has certain things everyone must do (customary things if you will) to achieve a goal.

 

[tommyjones]

You're in the right neighborhood. The culture comes from the people in it (obviously), and the people in it have religious beliefs. This is the whole point that started this discussion in another thread - I believe athiests in America have what they consider morals because of who they're around. They accept as right, and reject as wrong, those principals of the 83% of the population that is Christian. That's why even an American atheist sees what happened to that poor girl as wrong.

However, religious customs are customs of the religion. Religion is not a custom, religion has customs.

you really are trying to get semantic on us here. I mean having faith in christ is a custom. you learned it from someone, right down to how you pray. I dont see how it is anything more than a custom.

 

[wxtornado]

Prove it(Christ) wrong. What logic proves your beliefs correct.

Lol!

The null hypothesis is the default hypothesis. You are committing the logical fallacy of attempting to shift the burden of proof. You are making the positive assertion that your deity exists, so you are the one that must prove that he exists.

Unlike you, we have nothing that we have to prove. All we have to do point to the fact that you refuse to support your assertion with objective evidence, and the fact that you insist on committing a logical fallacy when you are asked to support your position.

Your assertion is meaningless since you have no objective evidence or proof to support your assertion that your deity even exists. Every other creation myth has exactly as much evidence and credibility as yours does. None! If you have anything, anything at all, by all means bring it forward

 

[This_person]

you really are trying to get semantic on us here. I mean having faith in christ is a custom. you learned it from someone, right down to how you pray. I dont see how it is anything more than a custom.

I am trying to use semantics here. Actually, that's been my whole point in discussing morality vs. "doing good". They're not the same thing. Religion is not a custom. Religions have customs, like the clothing Xa was talking about. And, one learns those customs when they've chosen a religion. But, the religion itself, to a person of faith, is not a custom.

Acting like you have faith in Christ, in God, may be a custom (and probably accounts for a great deal of that 83%) Actually having faith in Christ, in God, is not a custom. It's a belief system.