the moral chicken and egg

[fredcaudle]

Lol!

The null hypothesis is the default hypothesis. You are committing the logical fallacy of attempting to shift the burden of proof. You are making the positive assertion that your deity exists, so you are the one that must prove that he exists.

Unlike you, we have nothing that we have to prove. All we have to do point to the fact that you refuse to support your assertion with objective evidence, and the fact that you insist on committing a logical fallacy when you are asked to support your position.

Your assertion is meaningless since you have no objective evidence or proof to support your assertion that your deity even exists. Every other creation myth has exactly as much evidence and credibility as yours does. None! If you have anything, anything at all, by all means bring it forward

Wx... I am really not being sarcastic here, but believers do not have anything to "prove"... we live by faith. Faith is believing in things not seen. You write,

"Unlike you, we have nothing that we have to prove. All we have to do point to the fact that you refuse to support your assertion with objective evidence, and the fact that you insist on committing a logical fallacy when you are asked to support your position."

We can totally flip your statement around to non-believers as well. When a person claims they were created verses evolved... that is their belief (like mine), if you don't like it, or disagree with, or call it ignorance to science etc.... it does not make your statement true, it only expresses your opinion.

The thoughts on these threads should be taken as each person's thoughts (i.e. beliefs) and so if you disagree you certainly state so, but to "prove" - neither side can nor should either side feel obligated to. We believe what we want and truthfully can find evidence for anything we believe. (much history to this alone)

I have read on these threads that evolution is now proven a fact... no, only a fact to the people who have a presupposition to evolution. There are many phd's who are believers and who refute evolution and can dismiss much of the evidence evolution counts on. It is a belief - science does not determine truth (modernists proved this)... religion does not determine truth either. The individual choose truth... a believer's truth rests in Christ Jesus.

So, when we counter one another remember because "we said so" is not truth nor is anyone obligated to prove anything.

 

[fredcaudle]

Wx... I am really not being sarcastic here, but believers do not have anything to "prove"... we live by faith. Faith is believing in things not seen. You write,

"Unlike you, we have nothing that we have to prove. All we have to do point to the fact that you refuse to support your assertion with objective evidence, and the fact that you insist on committing a logical fallacy when you are asked to support your position."

We can totally flip your statement around to non-believers as well. When a person claims they were created verses evolved... that is their belief (like mine), if you don't like it, or disagree with, or call it ignorance to science etc.... it does not make your statement true, it only expresses your opinion.

The thoughts on these threads should be taken as each person's thoughts (i.e. beliefs) and so if you disagree you certainly state so, but to "prove" - neither side can nor should either side feel obligated to. We believe what we want and truthfully can find evidence for anything we believe. (much history to this alone)

I have read on these threads that evolution is now proven a fact... no, only a fact to the people who have a presupposition to evolution. There are many phd's who are believers and who refute evolution and can dismiss much of the evidence evolution counts on. It is a belief - science does not determine truth (modernists proved this)... religion does not determine truth either. The individual choose truth... a believer's truth rests in Christ Jesus.

So, when we counter one another remember because "we said so" is not truth nor is anyone obligated to prove anything.

And yes, I know my example of creation/evolution was not the theme of what you were saying here... but all this stuff comes down to "beliefs" and the "prove" thing is not a working argument on things we can't replicate.... (try reproducing evolution in a lab - scientist's can't do this; try creating from the beginning like God - we "ain't" Him and cannot do... so neither can be proven.)

 

[Lugnut]

but all this stuff comes down to "beliefs" and the "prove" thing is not a working argument on things we can't replicate.... (try reproducing evolution in a lab - scientist's can't do this; try creating from the beginning like God - we "ain't" Him and cannot do... so neither can be proven.)

Scientists observe (and even cause) evolution in labs every day around the world.



Some additional food for thought.

FOXNews.com - Report: Scientists Create New Life Form in Lab - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News

 

[fredcaudle]

Scientists observe (and even cause) evolution in labs every day around the world.



Some additional food for thought.

FOXNews.com - Report: Scientists Create New Life Form in Lab - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News

I have not heard of a new completely different species produced in a lab. Mutations, offshoots, etc through gene manipulation and such. Man came from an animal (or water, or fish, etc)... totally different composition from what it evolved to.

What do they observe or cause in labs?

 

[fredcaudle]

I have not heard of a new completely different species produced in a lab. Mutations, offshoots, etc through gene manipulation and such. Man came from an animal (or water, or fish, etc)... totally different composition from what it evolved to.

What do they observe or cause in labs?

Okay... I did some research... if evolution means changing genes or inherited traits passed on (Scientists force evolution in the lab - LiveScience - MSNBC.com) - we can call that evolution then.

I am referring to the start of mankind - from essentially a random act out of something not "man". There is no proof for this.

 

[2ndAmendment]

The definition of evolution has been changed from what Darwin called evolution. This allows the "evolution has been proved or is a fact" line. It is like the redefining of the word "gay" from the original meaning of festive or happy to queer and homosexual. Redefining the word does not change that one species did not become another species.

 

[Xaquin44]

The definition of evolution has been changed from what Darwin called evolution. This allows the "evolution has been proved or is a fact" line. It is like the redefining of the word "gay" from the original meaning of festive or happy to queer and homosexual. Redefining the word does not change that one species did not become another species.

that you will admit.

 

[Lugnut]

What do they observe or cause in labs?

Off the top of my head, bacteria and virus are monitored as they become drug resistant. They're also pushed to evolve to produce substances for vaccines, and materials research/production.

I know that controlled studies have been done on yeast cultures that have shown evolution as well.

Now several biotech companies are racing to be the first to create life from raw materials synthetically.

 

[Xaquin44]

Now several biotech companies are racing to be the first to create life from raw materials synthetically.

Now that would be funny.

 

[Lugnut]

The definition of evolution has been changed from what Darwin called evolution. This allows the "evolution has been proved or is a fact" line. It is like the redefining of the word "gay" from the original meaning of festive or happy to queer and homosexual. Redefining the word does not change that one species did not become another species.

He was one of the first to explore a new idea. Isn't it to be expected that the idea become refined with study over time?

Here are a couple references for instances of evolution observed in fish, plants and mammals.



Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)", Evolution 21:713-719
Kluger, Jeffrey. Go fish. (rapid fish speciation in African lakes). Discover. V13. P18(1) March, 1992

Speciation in the Desert Pocket Mouse (Chaetodipus penicillatus Woodhouse)
Thomas E. Lee, Jr, Brett R. Riddle, Pebbles L. Lee
Journal of Mammalogy, (Vol. 77 No. 1) Feb, 1996

 

[This_person]

He was one of the first to explore a new idea. Isn't it to be expected that the idea become refined with study over time?

Here are a couple references for instances of evolution observed in fish, plants and mammals.



Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)", Evolution 21:713-719
Kluger, Jeffrey. Go fish. (rapid fish speciation in African lakes). Discover. V13. P18(1) March, 1992

Speciation in the Desert Pocket Mouse (Chaetodipus penicillatus Woodhouse)
Thomas E. Lee, Jr, Brett R. Riddle, Pebbles L. Lee
Journal of Mammalogy, (Vol. 77 No. 1) Feb, 1996

So, for the sake of moving this discussion forward, humans change over time (sometimes when they need to, sometimes when they don't. Sometimes they don't when they need to, but all of that just confuses the discussion with more facts).

So, we change.

So what?

 

[Xaquin44]

So, for the sake of moving this discussion forward, humans change over time (sometimes when they need to, sometimes when they don't. Sometimes they don't when they need to, but all of that just confuses the discussion with more facts).

So, we change.

So what?

I'm pretty sure that's it.

 

[This_person]

I'm pretty sure that's it.

That's the whole point? We change over time?

Where does that get us with the discussion? Origin of life? (because, note, I agreed to humans change over time, not fish become humans over time) Whether morals are innate, or selfish instinct is and morals overcome those?

That's it?

 

[wxtornado]

I can tell by reading the last few posts that the theists here don't even know the definition of the word "species". Lol, you have every right to argue against something you know nothing about, but you certainly don't have a right to be taken seriously.

 

[toppick08]

I can tell by reading the last few posts that the theists here don't even know the definition of the word "species". Lol, you have every right to argue against something you know nothing about, but you certainly don't have a right to be taken seriously.

Lucifer loves your type...

 

[Xaquin44]

Lucifer loves your type...

sure ....

 

[toppick08]

sure ....

And you tooo..easy money,

 

[Xaquin44]

And you tooo..easy money,

I'll bet.

(rather, I would if there were any way to prove the outcome)

edit: by the by, laughing at the damned is a sin (or so I've been told) (by christians on this board)

and since all sins are apparently equal (which is stupid, but again, I didn't say it) you're just as bad off as I am =)

 

[bcp]

Off the top of my head, bacteria and virus are monitored as they become drug resistant. They're also pushed to evolve to produce substances for vaccines, and materials research/production.

I know that controlled studies have been done on yeast cultures that have shown evolution as well.

Now several biotech companies are racing to be the first to create life from raw materials synthetically.

interesting I think.

so, if man creates from raw materials a strain of life that reproduces on its own every 10 minutes or so, and that life begins to gain knowledge of things around it, I wonder if it would look at man as its creator and worship him as a god, and at the same time, maybe some of the life forms would find something stuck to the side of their dish and make up some stories about how they all came from that, and not from their god in the first place.

 

[toppick08]

I'll bet.

(rather, I would if there were any way to prove the outcome)

edit: by the by, laughing at the damned is a sin (or so I've been told) (by christians on this board)

and since all sins are apparently equal (which is stupid, but again, I didn't say it) you're just as bad off as I am =)

Not really, because in your mind(heart) where all just worm dirt. You have to accept your a sinner before anything happens.......