The Rapture was taught by early Church Fathers

[Chuckt]

Funny, because it makes absolutely no sense to me, but then again that's because scripture can be interpreted differently by every single individual who reads it. Some people use more reason and logic than others. Pre-trib thought is a newbie in the 2000 year old history of Christianity (John Darby circa 1830), and frankly I could debate the veracity of Chuck's assertion that Irenaeus and Tertullian were speaking of a pre-trib rapture merely by quoting the fathers in their actual context, but like I said it's a fruitless endeavor and there's just no point to it.

Irenaeus

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

They taught it and the Catholic Church ignores it.

 

[Chuckt]

Nope, I am your personal Satan. Please to meet you, hope you guess my name...

Now, explain why you are qualified to debunk radiant's post as a lie. And explain how you TRULY know who is right or wrong about something. And try being nicer to people and not such a condescending person.

Please check your mental health because you believe you are someone you're not.

 

[cheezgrits]

Please check your mental health because you believe you are someone you're not.

Quit worrying about me and respond to the request to explain the heart of my post. Why are ou qualified to judge someone else's post and how you TRULY know what is right or wrong about something that hasn't happened?

 

[Chuckt]

Quit worrying about me and respond to the request to explain the heart of my post. Why are ou qualified to judge someone else's post and how you TRULY know what is right or wrong about something that hasn't happened?

Because if you speak on Christian teaching, we have a right to judge.

King James Bible
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-29.htm

Prophecy is the end times so when you speak on it, we have a right to judge.

King James Bible
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/19-10.htm

 

[littlelady]

Because if you speak on Christian teaching, we have a right to judge.

King James Bible
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-29.htm

Prophecy is the end times so when you speak on it, we have a right to judge.

King James Bible
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

http://biblehub.com/revelation/19-10.htm

No, we do not have the right to judge. If you think that, then you are definitely not worth listening to. I think I see your problem, and it is a waste of time to discuss anything with you. JMO

 

[Chuckt]

No, we do not have the right to judge. If you think that, then you are definitely not worth listening to. I think I see your problem, and it is a waste of time to discuss anything with you. JMO

You just made a judgment that it is wrong to judge. Are you judging my judging?

Yes we do.

The cult of “Do not Judge”

 

[Chuckt]

Quit worrying about me and respond to the request to explain the heart of my post. Why are ou qualified to judge someone else's post and how you TRULY know what is right or wrong about something that hasn't happened?

What is Christian maturity?

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I am at full age and have reason of use to have my senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

How do you know right or wrong about something that hasn't happened?

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

In other words, the sheep know God's voice and the sheep won't listen to the voice of strangers. Therefore, someone knows the truth and other people don't know the truth.

So how can you defend the faith (Jude 3) for something that hasn't happened yet especially when a majority of the Bible is prophecy (stuff that hasn't happened yet)?

That you for letting me teach you the Bible because you obviously sit in judgment on a lot of stuff you don't know but want to be intolerant on.
You need to first listen to the truth and then make judgments.

 

[littlelady]

You just made a judgment that it is wrong to judge. Are you judging my judging?

Yes we do.

The cult of “Do not Judge”

I would like to think that you are not a hypocrite, or a truly convoluted individual, but I can only go by your posts. I think most members here (meaning the entire forum, not just religion) are true to who they are. There are a few that are not. It is easy to know the difference. You are not so mysterious and omnificent as you think you are. JMO

 

[Chuckt]

I would like to think that you are not a hypocrite, or a truly convoluted individual, but I can only go by your posts. I think most members here (meaning the entire forum, not just religion) are true to who they are. There are a few that are not. It is easy to know the difference. You are not so mysterious and omnificent as you think you are. JMO

I read the passage for many years and judging is like a volume control. For unbelievers that judge Christians, you should just not lest you be judged.

You probably ignored this verse:

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

You probably ignored this verse:

Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

So let us look at the verse you are referring to:

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&t=KJV#1

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So if I take the beam out of my own eye then I will be able to see clearly to remove the mote out of your eye.

It doesn't say I can't but it gives me instructions on what to do before judging.

I can show you multiple web links that say Christian ought to judge and I can show you multiple examples in the Bible where Christians did judge but I can't make you listen or change your mind.

The sin in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 5:1) was that someone had their father's wife and Paul instructs for them to put away such a person and in the Greek it means "lift up and out":

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

It means to judge and it is a clear instruction to judge which means that you are just taking one verse out of context and trying to make other verses say what they ought not to say. You are bending the Bible to fit your beliefs based on only one verse that you fail to translate correctly. You are judging my judging.

 

[littlelady]

I read the passage for many years and judging is like a volume control. For unbelievers that judge Christians, you should just not lest you be judged.

You probably ignored this verse:

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

You probably ignored this verse:

Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

So let us look at the verse you are referring to:

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&t=KJV#1

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So if I take the beam out of my own eye then I will be able to see clearly to remove the mote out of your eye.

It doesn't say I can't but it gives me instructions on what to do before judging.

I can show you multiple web links that say Christian ought to judge and I can show you multiple examples in the Bible where Christians did judge but I can't make you listen or change your mind.

The sin in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 5:1) was that someone had their father's wife and Paul instructs for them to put away such a person and in the Greek it means "lift up and out":

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

It means to judge and it is a clear instruction to judge which means that you are just taking one verse out of context and trying to make other verses say what they ought not to say. You are bending the Bible to fit your beliefs based on only one verse that you fail to translate correctly. You are judging my judging.

Ok. I will simplify. You contradict yourself. That's all.

 

[Chuckt]

I would like to think that you are not a hypocrite, or a truly convoluted individual, but I can only go by your posts. I think most members here (meaning the entire forum, not just religion) are true to who they are. There are a few that are not. It is easy to know the difference. You are not so mysterious and omnificent as you think you are. JMO

Mysterious and omnificent?

I don't have to be mysterious and omnificent. God said to go into all the world to preach the gospel and to teach people to observe what He commanded us to.

King James Bible
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm

I don't think you would follow the mysterious and omnificent one because He humbled Himself, He cloaked His powers in human flesh and since He told me the content to say, your interference with me is really interference with Him.

Here is another rendering of the verse:

New International Version
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

If you reject me, you reject Jesus and by doing so, you reject God.

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-18.htm

Paul says in Philippians 1:18 that if Christ is preached in pretence, Paul would rejoice. Even if I preached in pretense, you don't rejoice because you aren't listening to God.

 

[littlelady]

Mysterious and omnificent?

I don't have to be mysterious and omnificent. God said to go into all the world to preach the gospel and to teach people to observe what He commanded us to.

King James Bible
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

http://biblehub.com/luke/10-16.htm

I don't think you would follow the mysterious and omnificent one because He humbled Himself, He cloaked His powers in human flesh and since He told me the content to say, your interference with me is really interference with Him.

Here is another rendering of the verse:

New International Version
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

If you reject me, you reject Jesus and by doing so, you reject God.

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-18.htm

Paul says in Philippians 1:18 that if Christ is preached in pretence, Paul would rejoice. Even if I preached in pretense, you don't rejoice because you aren't listening to God.

This forum needs a :throwhandsup: as in I give up and will not waste more time smilie. Happy foruming! Nite, nite.

 

[Radiant1]

And you think you know your history?

Dr. John Gill lived from 1697-1771.

Gill is debated within the Protestant theological community whether he was pre-trib or not. Yourself being oh so studious should know that. BUT even if that is true (which I doubt, see below), the late 1700s is still very late in the game and only 60 years earlier than Darby.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

John Gill's commentary is right here on Biblehub. So much for your lie that John Darby started the Rapture theology in 1830. Lol.

It's not the rapture that's in question, it's pre-tribulation rapture that I questioned in response to b23's post. I read Gill's commentary and there is nothing there that suggests he believed in pre-trib.

In the future, you might want to read my posts for comprehension before you accuse me of being a liar.

Irenaeus

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

They taught it and the Catholic Church ignores it.

Yes, the Church will be caught up, but this says nothing of when that occurs. It's fairly clear to me that if the tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous", then there is no pre-tribulation rapture. If so, then why call it a "last contest"? It's not a contest if one is removed from the event beforehand.


In addition, let's take a look at Matthew 24:20-22 in which Irenaeus was referring to (although I think the KJV translation horrible, I'm going to use it simply because you seem to put stock in it):

Matthew Ch 24- 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter". It seems to me that one wouldn't need to flee if one were going to be taken up before the tribulation happens. "But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Again, it seems to me if there were a pre-tribulation rapture, then there would be no need to shorten the days for the elect's sake because, well, they wouldn't be around anyway now would they.

The Catholic Church isn't ignoring anything.



Like I said some people use reason and logic and others don't, and being right or wrong on this particular subject truly isn't relevant.

 

[Chuckt]

Gill is debated within the Protestant theological community whether he was pre-trib or not. Yourself being oh so studious should know that. BUT even if that is true (which I doubt, see below), the late 1700s is still very late in the game and only 60 years earlier than Darby.




It's not the rapture that's in question, it's pre-tribulation rapture that I questioned in response to b23's post. I read Gill's commentary and there is nothing there that suggests he believed in pre-trib.

In the future, you might want to read my posts for comprehension before you accuse me of being a liar.



Yes, the Church will be caught up, but this says nothing of when that occurs. It's fairly clear to me that if the tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous", then there is no pre-tribulation rapture. If so, then why call it a "last contest"? It's not a contest if one is removed from the event beforehand.


In addition, let's take a look at Matthew 24:20-22 in which Irenaeus was referring to (although I think the KJV translation horrible, I'm going to use it simply because you seem to put stock in it):

Matthew Ch 24- 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter". It seems to me that one wouldn't need to flee if one were going to be taken up before the tribulation happens. "But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Again, it seems to me if there were a pre-tribulation rapture, then there would be no need to shorten the days for the elect's sake because, well, they wouldn't be around anyway now would they.

The Catholic Church isn't ignoring anything.



Like I said some people use reason and logic and others don't, and being right or wrong on this particular subject truly isn't relevant.

There may be those who come to salvation after witnessing the rapture and the 144,000 witness to the world so there may be some salvation because once the church is removed, the Holy Spirit goes back to the 144,000 witnesses in Israel and they may work on the Jews becoming saved as a remnant.

The elect is Israel:

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Israel-As-The-Elect

Out of 16 mentions of the term “elect” in the Bible:

10 refer to Believers in General
2 refer to Believers who are Gentiles
1 refers to Believers who are Jews
2 refer to Jesus Christ himself
1 refers to the person Jacob who was a Believer

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/elect.html

The earliest instances of "rapture" in secular English literature are cited as 1605, 1607, and 1608.[6] OED provides seven nuances of the word Rapture. The fourth entry is the biblical one defined as "The act of conveying a person from one place to another esp. to heaven; the fact of being so conveyed."[7] Two examples of this use are cited from the seventeenth century. The first by a writer named Ward in 1647 and the other by J. Edwards (not the American Jonathan) in 1693.[8] It does not take long to realize that these examples are well before 1830.

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-myths

 

[Radiant1]

There may be those who come to salvation after witnessing the rapture and the 144,000 witness to the world so there may be some salvation because once the church is removed, the Holy Spirit goes back to the 144,000 witnesses in Israel and they may work on the Jews becoming saved as a remnant.

The elect is Israel:

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Israel-As-The-Elect

Out of 16 mentions of the term “elect” in the Bible:



http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/elect.html

You say "there may be", which means you don't really know regardless of how you are presenting yourself.

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-myths

Again, that's referring to rapture in it's general sense, not specifically a PRE-TRIBULATION rapture. In fact, this article presents no evidence whatsoever of a pre-tribulation rapture. It even mentions that Gill did not hold to a pre-trib rapture, but yet you used him as an example of such. I have to wonder if you even read the whole thing before you posted the link?



You can believe in anything you want of course, but personally I think it would behoove you to re-think this whole pre-trib thing. In fact, forget about all of it because in the end it DOESN'T MATTER!

 

[ProximaCentauri]

In fact, forget about all of it because in the end it DOESN'T MATTER!

Now there's something we can agree on!

 

[b23hqb]

Ok. I will simplify. You contradict yourself. That's all.

littlelady - we all make judgements, every day, all day, especially concerning people we evaluate by their lifestyle, speech, work habits, personal habits, etc. You evaluate what you see and hear, then you make a judgement. Period. No getting around it.

Doesn't mean you hate them, or they hate you.

This may help in properly understanding what biblical judgement is - one of many helpful notes:

1 Cor 2:15 (KJV) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things...

Mat 7:1 (KJV) "Judge not, that ye be not judged..."

F.F. Bruce: "Judgment is an ambiguous word, in Greek as in English: it may mean sitting in judgment on people (or even condemning them), or it may mean exercising a proper discrimination. In the former sense judgment is depreciated; in the latter sense it is recommended."

NIV Study Notes: The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things. The Christian is to "test everything":

1 Thes 5:21 (Phi) "By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good."

A.W. Tozer: "Among the gifts of the Spirit scarcely one is of greater practical usefulness than the gift of discernment. This gift should be highly valued and frankly sought as being almost indispensable in these critical times. This gift will enable us to distinguish the chaff from the wheat and to divide the manifestations of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit."

For clarity, let's use the word discern for the judgment that God encourages, and criticize for inappropriate judgments. By context, try to identify whether the word judgment, when used in Scripture, means discernment or criticism.

Chuckie responded to your posts by stating his mind and beliefs based on what you said. He made a judgement based on that, in the same way you made a judgement about him from his response to you. You have your opinions, others have theirs.

The Bible, and life in general, require us to make judgements, not condemning judgements, but judgements discerning what we should do and who we should hang out with. Christians are told to run away from sin and people committing them, to hang out with those of like mind and heart, to try and avoid , within reason and no malcontent, those that strongly differ from Christian beliefs.

Each individual has to make up their own mind. Just because others may disagree with you does not at all mean they are "judging" you, in your sense of judgement.

 

[littlelady]

b23, I agree with all you said in your last post. I just feel that Chuck comes across that he is the only one that is right in any discussions/disagreements on this forum. Imo, Chuck judges all that don't agree with him and allows no possibility of discussion. Maybe, I am wrong, but that is how I see it. Thanks for your input!

 

[Chuckt]

littlelady - we all make judgements, every day, all day, especially concerning people we evaluate by their lifestyle, speech, work habits, personal habits, etc. You evaluate what you see and hear, then you make a judgement. Period. No getting around it.

Doesn't mean you hate them, or they hate you.

This may help in properly understanding what biblical judgement is - one of many helpful notes:

1 Cor 2:15 (KJV) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things...

Mat 7:1 (KJV) "Judge not, that ye be not judged..."

F.F. Bruce: "Judgment is an ambiguous word, in Greek as in English: it may mean sitting in judgment on people (or even condemning them), or it may mean exercising a proper discrimination. In the former sense judgment is depreciated; in the latter sense it is recommended."

NIV Study Notes: The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things. The Christian is to "test everything":

1 Thes 5:21 (Phi) "By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good."

A.W. Tozer: "Among the gifts of the Spirit scarcely one is of greater practical usefulness than the gift of discernment. This gift should be highly valued and frankly sought as being almost indispensable in these critical times. This gift will enable us to distinguish the chaff from the wheat and to divide the manifestations of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit."

For clarity, let's use the word discern for the judgment that God encourages, and criticize for inappropriate judgments. By context, try to identify whether the word judgment, when used in Scripture, means discernment or criticism.

Chuckie responded to your posts by stating his mind and beliefs based on what you said. He made a judgement based on that, in the same way you made a judgement about him from his response to you. You have your opinions, others have theirs.

The Bible, and life in general, require us to make judgements, not condemning judgements, but judgements discerning what we should do and who we should hang out with. Christians are told to run away from sin and people committing them, to hang out with those of like mind and heart, to try and avoid , within reason and no malcontent, those that strongly differ from Christian beliefs.

Each individual has to make up their own mind. Just because others may disagree with you does not at all mean they are "judging" you, in your sense of judgement.

What they don't understand is that tolerance is a judgment. When we tolerate evil, it flourishes and we are actually supporting it. Do a word study on apathy and you might find something interesting.

The word F.F. Bruce is talking about in reference to judgment is what some people call censorious judgment. We don't have the right to replace God in our judgments but we can say what God says and we are allowed to talk about Him.

There are a lot more examples in the Bible about judgment. One of my favorites is Daniel and how he stood up for what is right. Do you know what Daniel's name is?

Daniel = "God is my judge"

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1840&t=KJV

How would you like to be reminded by your name that God is judge. We think of God as our homeboy or God as love and he is love but the definitions say that God can't love unless He hates evil.

 

[seekeroftruth]

b23, I agree with all you said in your last post. I just feel that Chuck comes across that he is the only one that is right in any discussions/disagreements on this forum. Imo, Chuck judges all that don't agree with him and allows no possibility of discussion. Maybe, I am wrong, but that is how I see it. Thanks for your input!

That's how I feel about most of the discussions with him as well.

He backs his decisions with verses he finds so he thinks he's the only one that could be right.