Tortured Iraqis

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by jlabsher

Of course it is too much to ask him to do the honorable thing and accept blame and responsibility for what happened on his watch, that's not the American way, nobody falls on their sword by choice anymore.

Rumsfeld - "In recent days, there has been a good deal of discussion about who bears responsibility for the terrible activities that took place at Abu Ghraib. These events occurred on my watch. As Secretary of Defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. "

 

[jlabsher]

ST I lived in Japan for 5 years or so. I remember when things such as scandal would happen in business or politics. The first thing that happened was the boss would resign automatically, take responsibility for whatever happened, even if there was no fathomable way he could have stopped it.

In the Navy, I was on a ship that ran aground, was the CO's first cruise, charts were out of date, pilot was onboard, guess who was the first to go?

If my kids screws up and becomes a mass murderer so I have to change my last name who's responsible? Mom & dad, that's who, even we did our best.

Rumsfeld will be the first to bask in glory when things are going well for the armed forces, but when it hits the fan will he be the first to go? Don't bet on it. With power comes responsibility. There is no way he could have known about it. BUT, if he immediately turned in his papers to dumbya and full damage control was enacted by the whitehouse and pentagon, it would be better in the "liberal" press both here and abroad (not necessarily in the muslim countries). It would show resolve to fix the problem.

I mean, it's not like he needs the job for god's sake.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by SmallTown
Rumsfeld - "In recent days, there has been a good deal of discussion about who bears responsibility for the terrible activities that took place at Abu Ghraib. These events occurred on my watch. As Secretary of Defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn't happen again. "

Thank you, ST - I take back all the mean things I thought about you today. :

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by jlabsher
Rumsfeld will be the first to bask in glory when things are going well for the armed forces, but when it hits the fan will he be the first to go? Don't bet on it.

You, on the other hand, can

 

[jlabsher]

Vrai, time to ease up on the estrogen!

 

[SmallTown]

With the information I have seen, I see no reason for rummy to step down. In terms of military ranks, most involved were pretty low-level people. This would be like a bank teller stealing money during her work day, then firing the CEO because of it.

Now, if rummy did know about it all along (and some reports say as much) and these actions were authorized by him, that is a different story. But even with that, I'm not sure losing his job will make a difference or is the right thing

 

[jlabsher]

Interesting read:

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2903288.php

"This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level. This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential — even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war."

Army Times is of course, a member of the liberal press.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Originally posted by jlabsher
he came in and told them "my way or the highway" 4 years ago.

Anytime someone new takes something over in the military it is this way. Whether it be a Admiral, Captian, Major or even a Chief. Its their way of pissing on everything to show everyone that they are the boss, see it all the time. Civil servants do it too.

You said its not like Rumsfield needs the job, thats part of what makes him a great person for it. He is the secretary of defense, not the secretary of being nice. We need someone in that position that is competent and has a "pitbull" attitude.

I have liked Rummy ever since I read the story about him pulling people out of the rubble at the pentagon until the secret service came and told him that he really needed to get out of there. To me he is a hero and my favorite person in the administration, and I am hoping he may run for President one day.

FYI in the past administration Janet Reno was my favorite, she was a tough old broad.

 

[Bonehead]

Yeah tough old broad that allowed BOTH Ruby Ridge and Waco to happen on her watch and then had the balls to try to explain such behavior as justice. Absolute bullshit ! How can you be stupid enough to have respect for her ? Amazing to me.

 

[willie]

As I said before, I feel Lyndie(sp) England and the rest of her perverts should get psycho and jail time. The media, who couldn't care less about the country that gives them their freedom to print, is going way too far with the latest revelations. I'm sure all the Bush bashers want these prisoners driven around in limo's and fed caviar but it is war after all. The extra large front page photo of the poor soul behind bars handling his beads had one purpose only and it wasn't pro-America. That drunk azz Kennedy will probably want us to pay reparations before it's over.

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by willie
I'm sure all the Bush bashers want these prisoners driven around in limo's and fed caviar but it is war after all.

You must be smoking the same stuff as Vrai.
1) This isn't about Bush. it is about some of our troops who F'ed up.

2) Again, going from one extreme to the other. We aren't looking for these people to be driven around in limos. Just expect our troops to follow international law regarding this subject. Being free isn't about being a lawless nation.

3) Yes, the media is going overboard. But interestingly enough, foxnews has a much broader section devoted to this incident than any of the other networks. So apparantly they don't think it is political, either.

4) As an addition to #3, it is Rumsfeld himself saying this issue is more widespread than just a couple of idiots. Not the media.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by jlabsher
ST I lived in Japan for 5 years or so. I remember when things such as scandal would happen in business or politics. The first thing that happened was the boss would resign automatically, take responsibility for whatever happened, even if there was no fathomable way he could have stopped it.

In the Navy, I was on a ship that ran aground, was the CO's first cruise, charts were out of date, pilot was onboard, guess who was the first to go?

If my kids screws up and becomes a mass murderer so I have to change my last name who's responsible? Mom & dad, that's who, even we did our best.

Rumsfeld will be the first to bask in glory when things are going well for the armed forces, but when it hits the fan will he be the first to go? Don't bet on it. With power comes responsibility. There is no way he could have known about it. BUT, if he immediately turned in his papers to dumbya and full damage control was enacted by the whitehouse and pentagon, it would be better in the "liberal" press both here and abroad (not necessarily in the muslim countries). It would show resolve to fix the problem.

I mean, it's not like he needs the job for god's sake.

I disagree on this one. In the Navy if a ship runs aground the CO is relieved because he is in direct command of that ship. Sec Def is a civilian administrator of the military and was not in direct command of the MP unit, brigade, or batallion. How is Rumsfeld supposed to know what some trailer trash reservist is doing in a cell block in Iraq? Saying he should resign because of a scandal that he is not involved in directly is foolish. If that were SOP then we would have a different Secretay every 3 months. "DUI rates for soldiers in TX hit and all time high last month, therefore I must accept responsibility and resign." Or "Adultery is rampant at a base in Alaska, therefore since it is my responsibility I will resign."

From the report it seems that the abuse was somewhat isolated to a particular brigade. If you remember near the end of the report the IG was pointing out that other brigades in that same battalion did wonderful jobs because of strong leadership. This case is simple. You had a weak General, who had a weak battalion commander, which spiraled down. Do public courts martials on them and (I know this is not a concept easy for a liberal ) PUNISH THE ACTUAL ONES WHO DID THE DEEDS, AND THE ONES WHO ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN. Then move on.

 

[Tonio]

Any reason so many female soldiers were involved? Anger at the second-class status of women in the fundamentalist Muslim countries?

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by Tonio
Any reason so many female soldiers were involved? Anger at the second-class status of women in the fundamentalist Muslim countries?

Part of the idea about no gays in the military? Women enjoyed seeing the naked iraqis, not the men. now if ceo_pte had been over there...

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by Tonio
Any reason so many female soldiers were involved? Anger at the second-class status of women in the fundamentalist Muslim countries?

I think they are just freaking pervs who get a rush out of totally dominating people. Your idea may have some validity though. I was in DS in 91 and was in a detachment that went to Saudi. There was a female Chief who was supposed to be in charge. They called us in (she and I) and explained the was women are viewed in Saudi and what she could and could not do. They told her that if she went that I was going to have to do all of the tasks that involved locals. They also told her that if she wished she could be replaced and a male could be sent in her place. She elected to go and once there set out to single handedly challenge every local rule that was in place. This made it very difficult. I was mildly annoyed right up to the point I got hauled in to the security office to explain to the Saudi Army Colonel why one of our females were photographing AAA batteries and a AA missile site. The dingbat wanted pictures of the camels that were walking aorund. It was that point I kinda got pizzed.

The point is should our CO in Italy be relieved because a an adult SNCO knowingly broke the rules? No, whack the ones who broke the rules, and those who knew it and allowed it.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by cariblue
UFB.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by Pete
I think they are just freaking pervs who get a rush out of totally dominating people.

You don't think they just had enough BS and snapped?

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Tonio
You don't think they just had enough BS and snapped?

No, I think I've had enough BS and snapped!

After some thought, here's my final position (maybe):

I don't consider what was done to these prisoners "torture". Now they're saying that they were made to walk around in women's underwear - OH THE HUMANITY!! Find that one in the Geneva Convention - "No making male prisoners walk around in ladies underwear."

These "guards" got out of control and got stupid. They might have been fired by anger BUT I think they were more fired by being a bunch of rednecks who don't know how to act. To me, their "crime" wasn't in writing on the prisoners or having dogs bark at them - it was in posing for pictures like a bunch of trailer trash dirtbags.

Whoever was supposed to be in charge there needs a serious reprimand, possibly a discharge. The posers should definitely be dishonorably discharged and sent back to wherever hillbillys come from.

Anyone who is calling for Rumsfeld or even Bush to resign is an idiot and a zealot. Yeah, that's what we do - make the Secretary of Defense and the President resign when some 20 year old GIs do something stupid. Although "President Cheney" is sounding awfully good to me right now.

Those POWs were there for a reason - any interrogation tactics, they brought on themselves. At this point, they'll say anything to make themselves look like the victims instead of a bunch of sadists and terrorists, which IS what they are. Eff them.

The Red Cross is a scam organization and shouldn't be looked to as a credible source of anything. Same goes for our screwball media. Eff them, too.

I resent the Democrats predicting a "Vietnam", then doing their damndest to make it come true - i.e. trying to lose the war through public opinion. Democrats are notoriously weak on national defense and, as far as I'm concerned, every single one of them should be prosecuted for treason.

I think that's it.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
These "guards" got out of control and got stupid. They might have been fired by anger BUT I think they were more fired by being a bunch of rednecks who don't know how to act. To me, their "crime" wasn't in writing on the prisoners or having dogs bark at them - it was in posing for pictures like a bunch of trailer trash dirtbags.

Whoever was supposed to be in charge there needs a serious reprimand, possibly a discharge. The posers should definitely be dishonorably discharged and sent back to wherever hillbillys come from.

I thought I would find someone here who believes that the terrorists in those POW prisons don't deserve any humanity or dignity. Doesn't anyone believe that the US is entitled do ANYTHING we want to the terrorists? It's not about them or what they want. It's about us, dammit.

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by Tonio
I thought I would find someone here who believes that the terrorists in those POW prisons don't deserve any humanity or dignity. Doesn't anyone believe that the US is entitled do ANYTHING we want to the terrorists? It's not about them or what they want. It's about us, dammit.

These people have not been defined as terrorists. Gitmo is a terrorist holding area, and thus is not bound by the geneva convention