Tortured Iraqis

[Bruzilla]

After listening to the testimony yesterday, it seems more and more that the issue isn't that the MPs or the DoD were at fault. The issue's going to be was this part of an overall effort to get some of the prisoners to talk by putting them under severe emotional distress. If that's the case, I'm all for it. I'm tired of seeing guys and gals getting killed because of an insane notion that we fight a "nice" war.

The US always seems to get into trouble when we let other countries think we're a pushover and won't fight back. When are we ever going to take to heart the lesson that it's always better to be feared than loved?

 

[willie]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
After listening to the testimony yesterday, it seems more and more that the issue isn't that the MPs or the DoD were at fault. The issue's going to be was this part of an overall effort to get some of the prisoners to talk by putting them under severe emotional distress. If that's the case, I'm all for it. I'm tired of seeing guys and gals getting killed because of an insane notion that we fight a "nice" war.

The US always seems to get into trouble when we let other countries think we're a pushover and won't fight back. When are we ever going to take to heart the lesson that it's always better to be feared than loved?

I didn't take it that way at all. Rumsfield came across as to have found it unbelievable that Americans would stoop that low until he saw the pictures. We have the power to win this taking the high road. That small group of sadists has damaged this great country for many years to come.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
The US always seems to get into trouble when we let other countries think we're a pushover and won't fight back. When are we ever going to take to heart the lesson that it's always better to be feared than loved?

Well, for one thing, they're NEVER going to "love" us. When you stick your head out above the crowd, you become a target. It's just the way it is.

Our problem is that we care too much about what these loser nations (and our own domestic losers) think of us. There are a lot of nonsensical people in this world - read my email sometime. You can't make them see reason and you can't make them understand things that make perfect sense. Why we give these nutties any credence, I will never understand.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by willie
That small group of sadists has damaged this great country for many years to come.

Again, 7 DAYS IN A ROW this Iraqi POW crap has been on the front page of the Washington Post. They devoted ONE DAY to the REAL atrocities the Fallujans visited upon our guys.

That tells me something.

 

[Larry Gude]

I give...

...I've been giving Vrai the 'we're better 'n dat' crap for two weeks.

Eff them. Everything I learn about this is pushing me way over into 'SO WHAT???" territory.

CIA instricted people to 'soften them up'.
They prisoners were causing problems.
The faked Brit crap.

I've had it . Screw them people.

Special Mom of the County, you right. I wrong.

Let the bastards know they are LUCKY we are NOT abusing them. We'll turn our nimrod press loose on them and after being asked 1,000 times a day 'how did you FEEL about being, blah, blah..." they'll all hang themselves with bed sheets.

 

[willie]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Again, 7 DAYS IN A ROW this Iraqi POW crap has been on the front page of the Washington Post. They devoted ONE DAY to the REAL atrocities the Fallujans visited upon our guys.

That tells me something.

What it tells me is our Country has a much higher standard to live up to and a barbaric stunt like this just gives the Kennedy/Kerry and that frog voiced dingbat from New York more ammunition to stretch this into a partisan fight. As we discussed earlier, the Media is having such a good time with their Country's misfortune that it spills over to the Style section. When those Fallujans committed an honest to goodness horrific crime against our people it was about what you would expect from those animals but we should be better than that. That female MP with the dangling cigarette is not what the United States Armed Services is all about.

 

[jlabsher]

What all you flag wavers forget is that we invaded their country under the premise of liberating them from a despotic dictator. Now we are humiliating and torturing them. I thought we rode in to Iraq wearing our white hats and sitting high in the saddle to save them. Now we are the bad guys. It would be different if they had invaded our country or committed acts of terror against us. THEY DIDN'T! We started the whole thing, UN and congressional mandate notwithstanding.

We told them "We're the good guys, we're coming here to make life better for you." Now some lowlife guard members end up treating their people like dogs and some of you condone it? Why? It is war, not cribbage, there are no rules. But rules apply to prisoners of war, they have for over 50 years and our people blatently disregarded them and were so proud of the fact that they treated prisoners like dogs that they took pix of it.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by jlabsher
Now we are humiliating and torturing them.

Humiliating and torturing WHO??? You act like the soldiers are dragging people out of their homes. THESE ARE PRISONERS!!! They were shooting at our guys or there was some reason to incarcerate them. One of the main Iraqi guys who's feeding the press was a guard/torturer under Saddam - he said so in one of the interviews.

And what's this "their people" crap? Those POWs probably helped drag 10 year old girls into the rape rooms for Uday! Didn't you read the article I linked to that quoted Iraqis over here as saying BFD to these POWs getting smacked around?

It's amazing to me how anyone can be so obtuse. WHO DO YOU THINK THESE POWS ARE??? WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY CAME FROM????? THESE ARE NOT IRAQI CIVILIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus GOD!!!!

 

[willie]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Humiliating and torturing WHO??? You act like the soldiers are dragging people out of their homes. THESE ARE PRISONERS!!! They were shooting at our guys or there was some reason to incarcerate them. One of the main Iraqi guys who's feeding the press was a guard/torturer under Saddam - he said so in one of the interviews.

And what's this "their people" crap? Those POWs probably helped drag 10 year old girls into the rape rooms for Uday! Didn't you read the article I linked to that quoted Iraqis over here as saying BFD to these POWs getting smacked around?

It's amazing to me how anyone can be so obtuse. WHO DO YOU THINK THESE POWS ARE??? WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY CAME FROM????? THESE ARE NOT IRAQI CIVILIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus GOD!!!!

Most of us are better than that. The only type of person I can imagine doing those tricks and photographing them is a pervert. That group of MP's is sick besides stupid. There is no excuse to behave like that....none. I can say for sure that if I had in custody a person that had tortured, maimed and disrespected the body of my loved one, I would kill the SOB but never lower myself to his level like these out of control MP's did. They made it obvious that they enjoyed it. That Linndie, whatever her name is, is one sick little girl that needs a psycho ward then jail time.
Jesus God!!!

 

[jlabsher]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Humiliating and torturing WHO??? You act like the soldiers are dragging people out of their homes. THESE ARE PRISONERS!!! They were shooting at our guys or there was some reason to incarcerate them. One of the main Iraqi guys who's feeding the press was a guard/torturer under Saddam - he said so in one of the interviews.

And what's this "their people" crap? Those POWs probably helped drag 10 year old girls into the rape rooms for Uday! Didn't you read the article I linked to that quoted Iraqis over here as saying BFD to these POWs getting smacked around?

It's amazing to me how anyone can be so obtuse. WHO DO YOU THINK THESE POWS ARE??? WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY CAME FROM????? THESE ARE NOT IRAQI CIVILIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus GOD!!!!

And you know this for a fact? You know every one of them personally? They are all evil in their hearts and have killed lots of innocent babies and eaten their flesh right? Maybe I should post some pictures of dead Iraqi babies killed by US troops, or mothers grieving over their wounded children would that make you feel better? War is hell, something that those of us who have been shot at while serving this country realize, like Colin Powell-the only high level member of the current administration who has been through one. But we always fight the good fight fairly even though the enemy may not, since this country was founded.

They are US prisoners, we are the USA, we stand for freedom and dignity, and fairness and all that is right with the world last time I checked. Now we have some lowlife national guard people treating prisoners like dogs in the name of the USA and that is alright with you?

Sorry, I don't like it, we are the good guys who will turn our cheek when slapped and fight only as a last resort. When we capture the enemy we will treat them with at least human dignity even though they may not treat our prisoners that way, talk to somebody who survived the Bataan death march, liberated the concentration camps or lived in a tiger cage. They wouln't treat an enemy that way even though they lived through or saw torture we, in our comfortable lives could never imagine. In WW2, the Germans were running to surrender to the US instead of the Russians because they knew the US would treat them better and the Russians would beat them. In the Japanese theater, they treated our prisoners like dogs (Remember the Bridge Over the River Kwai?) did we do the same to them? No, we were better than that. We should be especially now, 60 years later, but this is rotten, and Rumsfeld still smirks before Congress.

 

[sleuth]

I'm afraid I fall into the "We're better than that" category.

Were there worse things done to our men? Yes.
Still doesn't excuse it.

I don't have a problem with "softening up" prisoners via mental and physical torture, when it is required, but from what I understand, most of these Iraqi POWs were of little value intelligence-wise.

And from what I understand from hearing the testimonies yesterday, there are "worse" pictures and videos that we haven't seen, including rape footage.

 

[sleuth]

Originally posted by jlabsher
and Rumsfeld still smirks before Congress.

whatever...

Rumsfeld is a great man.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by jlabsher
And you know this for a fact? You know every one of them personally? They are all evil in their hearts and have killed lots of innocent babies and eaten their flesh right? Maybe I should post some pictures of dead Iraqi babies killed by US troops, or mothers grieving over their wounded children would that make you feel better? War is hell, something that those of us who have been shot at while serving this country realize, like Colin Powell-the only high level member of the current administration who has been through one. But we always fight the good fight fairly even though the enemy may not, since this country was founded.

They are US prisoners, we are the USA, we stand for freedom and dignity, and fairness and all that is right with the world last time I checked. Now we have some lowlife national guard people treating prisoners like dogs in the name of the USA and that is alright with you?

Sorry, I don't like it, we are the good guys who will turn our cheek when slapped and fight only as a last resort. When we capture the enemy we will treat them with at least human dignity even though they may not treat our prisoners that way, talk to somebody who survived the Bataan death march, liberated the concentration camps or lived in a tiger cage. They wouln't treat an enemy that way even though they lived through or saw torture we, in our comfortable lives could never imagine. In WW2, the Germans were running to surrender to the US instead of the Russians because they knew the US would treat them better and the Russians would beat them. In the Japanese theater, they treated our prisoners like dogs (Remember the Bridge Over the River Kwai?) did we do the same to them? No, we were better than that. We should be especially now, 60 years later, but this is rotten, and Rumsfeld still smirks before Congress.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by jlabsher
Sorry, I don't like it, we are the good guys who will turn our cheek when slapped and fight only as a last resort. When we capture the enemy we will treat them with at least human dignity even though they may not treat our prisoners that way, talk to somebody who survived the Bataan death march, liberated the concentration camps or lived in a tiger cage. They wouln't treat an enemy that way even though they lived through or saw torture we, in our comfortable lives could never imagine. In WW2, the Germans were running to surrender to the US instead of the Russians because they knew the US would treat them better and the Russians would beat them. In the Japanese theater, they treated our prisoners like dogs (Remember the Bridge Over the River Kwai?) did we do the same to them? No, we were better than that. We should be especially now, 60 years later, but this is rotten, and Rumsfeld still smirks before Congress.

I would say for the most part that the vast majority don’t like it either, myself included. But this isn’t a systematic or military wide problem; it is a handful of deranged individuals that crossed the line of acceptable behavior. They committed a crime and they will be handled in accordance with the UCMJ as they should be just like the other 1800 personnel brought before courts marshal this past year. Our military, like our society have some sick individuals in it. The only thing you can do is identify and remove them as soon as possible.

Events such as this can be found in any conflict that we have partaken in. Just ask John Kerry to tell you about the crimes committed in Vietnam, I’m sure that he’ll have a great story of atrocities for you. Hell, he even admitted to participating in some of what he characterized as illegal activities so he can tell of it first handedly. My Dad fought in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and knew of stories that would make this one pale in comparison. I arrived in theater right before we got out of Vietnam and heard the same and saw some "ear" necklaces for myself. So please don't act as if this has only happened under Rumsfeld's watch.

And yes we are the good guys but we have learned that we can no longer wait to fight at the last resort. If we revert back to that philosophy we may as well line up another 3,000 citizens and shoot them in the head. We have to become proactive towards terrorists and the nations that support them. No longer can we sit on our haunches with our collective heads up our asses.

Your biggest b!tch seems to be that in your perception of the events Mr. Rumsfeld smirked before this committee. Not seeing the broadcast I don’t know about the incident that you are talking about, but I have seen how some of these committees act towards the witnesses and quite frankly what they do, at times, doesn’t seem American either and a smirk might be an appropriate response (as well as flipping them off).

 

[vraiblonde]

This has been so blown out of proportion that there's no perspective anymore. First it was a few Iraqi POWs getting stripped and humiliated in one prison camp. Now it's ALL Iraqis ALL OVER Iraq being raped, maimed and killed by ALL US soldiers.

And you know this for a fact? You know every one of them personally?

What's most dismaying about you, JLab, and the folks who feel the way you do, is that you are completely and totally willing to give the Iraqi prisoners the benefit of the doubt. "How do you KNOW they were criminals?" Yet you aren't willing to give any kind of leeway to the US soldiers or give them any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Your hatred for George Bush has made you crazy.

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
This has been so blown out of proportion that there's no perspective anymore. First it was a few Iraqi POWs getting stripped and humiliated in one prison camp. Now it's ALL Iraqis ALL OVER Iraq being raped, maimed and killed by ALL US soldiers.


What's most dismaying about you, JLab, and the folks who feel the way you do, is that you are completely and totally willing to give the Iraqi prisoners the benefit of the doubt. "How do you KNOW they were criminals?" Yet you aren't willing to give any kind of leeway to the US soldiers or give them any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Your hatred for George Bush has made you crazy.

The simple fact of the matter is that what we were doing is wrong. You can spin it any way you want to, then end result is that we f'ed up and got caught. All the sugar coating in the world won't make it go away.

As for being blown out of proportion. Not so sure about that. Especially after Rumsfeld himself came out and said this is much deeper than we know, that many more pictures and even videos have yet to make it to the public. So who knows how widespread it is. And no, we aren't saying it is a military-wide thing. But obviously it is more than 1 or 2 of our guys (and ladies) doing stuff they aren't supposed to. We can not ride in on the white horse and claim they are free from saddam's heavy hand, then do the things we are doing.

I'm sure you would have just been so proud had it been your son in the pictures doing these things. I'm sure you would have been posting them all over this website and all over frederick saying "Look, this is my baby!"

 

[Penn]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
It's amazing to me how anyone can be so obtuse. WHO DO YOU THINK THESE POWS ARE??? WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY CAME FROM????? THESE ARE NOT IRAQI CIVILIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus GOD!!!!

As I sit here and read the latest round of tit for tat, with folks on both sides of the issue espousing their feelings concerning this supposed torture and humiliation of these innocent Iraqi prisoners, I'm in awe of the polarized camps of our members.

Not too much middle-of-the-road type of feeling here, either you're with one side, or the other.

I think the liberal press is blowing it way out of proportion, and I've had enough of it - up to here- let the courts decide who's to blame, and impose the proper punishment.

Let's get over it and put it behind us; let's move on and quit this obsession with pointing fingers.

PS: Vrai, I knew you'd get religion sooner or later! Jesus GOD!!!!

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
This has been so blown out of proportion that there's no perspective anymore. First it was a few Iraqi POWs getting stripped and humiliated in one prison camp. Now it's ALL Iraqis ALL OVER Iraq being raped, maimed and killed by ALL US soldiers.


What's most dismaying about you, JLab, and the folks who feel the way you do, is that you are completely and totally willing to give the Iraqi prisoners the benefit of the doubt. "How do you KNOW they were criminals?" Yet you aren't willing to give any kind of leeway to the US soldiers or give them any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Your hatred for George Bush has made you crazy.

Maybe its the exact opposite. Your love for George Bush has made you crazy.:shrug: Always defending him and not having an opinion of your own.

The man whom you defend even said so himself that he was sorry for what some of the guilty troops had done.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Originally posted by BuddyLee


The man whom you defend even said so himself that he was sorry for what some of the guilty troops had done.

I think anybody in the office would have done the same as far as apologizing.

 

[BuddyLee]

Originally posted by czygvtwkr
I think anybody in the office would have done the same as far as apologizing.

The point was not whether he apologized or not. It was that Vrai defends his every move without regard to her own beliefs if she has any.