US Marines killed innocent women and children

[frstabbo]

frstabbo,

First, don’t even to presume to know what our troops are going through. These MEN are men and age does not make one a man. They took up a calling that many won’t even consider and that act does make them men. So get off of it.

Next, you say that you have never heard of criminals using human shields, even children? Climb out from under your rock and smell the coffee. It has been going on for years and in every conflict that has been fought in recent decades. The shield isn’t to stop the bullet from hitting them it is an effort to stop the bullet from leaving the business end of the weapon.

As been said if it is proven that murders were committed the guilty parties and their superiors will face the consequences, in accordance with our laws because whether you believe it or not we do not tolerate murder.

The fact that our coalition forces are the only ones being held to established standards of warfare should clue you into the fact we do our best to minimize collateral losses. Also it is a fact that our current enemy does not adhere to similar standards and the media bares this out but that fact falls on blind eyes on those so ready and willing to condemn our own.

Our troops are being left to make critical life or death decisions in split seconds as to who is or isn’t a hostile and mistakes will be made. Such is the nature of warfare and the gruesomeness of it. To sit back in your nice safe home and denigrate those that could possibly be innocent is an injustice to those that might not be deserving of the characterization that you have laid upon them. What really happened will be determined and justice will be served. After all these aren’t rich men and they certainly can’t afford the high-powered lawyers that get many a person off that committed crimes.

First of all, id like to thank you for not calling me some nasty name, like some other people on this thread have done in the past. In response to your comments, I would disagree that age does not make a man. It does make a man. I think we can both agree that being a marine is a very difficult, demanding job. Just because a child decides that he wants to be a marine,that does not make him fit for the job. I could argue that cops face similar threats. Does that mean we should allow 15 year old cops as well.

The reason the media is bringing this to light and why there are investigations going on is because the evidence in this case is damning. They have concluded that there was a coverup. So there you go. Shrapnel didnt kill these people, like the marines said. These "innocent" marines are already guilty of falsifing reports where children died. We will see whats next.

Ask the people who died at my lai if justice was served. I hope these are different times now and that justice will be done this time.

 

[ylexot]

I would disagree that age does not make a man. It does make a man.

I disagree with your disagreement A "man" (or woman for that matter) is made a man because of their character based on experience. Obviously, age allows for more experience, but it does not mean that someone has that experience. Also, experience alone does not make someone into a man. It's what you learn from that experience. There are many adults who I would not consider "men" and many children who display the character of being a man.

Are these Marines "men"? I can't say for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that they are.

 

[Ken King]

First of all, id like to thank you for not calling me some nasty name, like some other people on this thread have done in the past. In response to your comments, I would disagree that age does not make a man. It does make a man. I think we can both agree that being a marine is a very difficult, demanding job. Just because a child decides that he wants to be a marine,that does not make him fit for the job. I could argue that cops face similar threats. Does that mean we should allow 15 year old cops as well.

You're right just because he wants to be a Marine doesn't make him one, but that 13 weeks of intense training does. And that is when the lad transitions into a fighting man. As to the 15 year-old deal that has been seen before, wasn't Audie Murphy only 17 upon enlistment and he was (I believe) the most decorated soldier in history. Currently the law takes no one under 18 without parental consent so this isn't an issue, why make it one.

The reason the media is bringing this to light and why there are investigations going on is because the evidence in this case is damning. They have concluded that there was a coverup. So there you go. Shrapnel didnt kill these people, like the marines said. These "innocent" marines are already guilty of falsifing reports where children died. We will see whats next.

The reason the media is all over this is because that is what they do, they tell us what is important. And how is it that "they have concluded that there was a coverup"? Has the media had access to all factual information while Article 32 proceedings are underway? If so, then there is a chance that all involved will walk upon appeal if convicted.

The problem for me and why I don't just blindly following the media is that many of us know somewhat more than them as to what it is to serve and what it is to face combat. The same goes for many of our populace. War is not pretty and it will bring out the worst in a human.

When you live day in and day out with actual threats and lead buzzing around your head, see your buddies bodies savaged by inhuman devices of combat like the IEDs, and are facing an enemy that doesn't comply by the established rules of combat the innocent may fall vicitm in the process. Where is your outrage at those that hide within the civilian populace that bring the violence into the homes of the innocent?

Ask the people who died at my lai if justice was served. I hope these are different times now and that justice will be done this time.

If I could do that do you think I would be spending my time with the internet?

Is it your intent to exact revenge on these Marines accused in this case for the wrongs of the 1960s done by different men? What was discovered about My Lai was that those soldiers were ordered to do what they did and all they did was follow those orders. Which might be the case here, I don't know. I am still not convinced as to the innocence of most of those that died in Haditha.

 

[frstabbo]

You're right just because he wants to be a Marine doesn't make him one, but that 13 weeks of intense training does. And that is when the lad transitions into a fighting man. As to the 15 year-old deal that has been seen before, wasn't Audie Murphy only 17 upon enlistment and he was (I believe) the most decorated soldier in history. Currently the law takes no one under 18 without parental consent so this isn't an issue, why make it one.


The reason the media is all over this is because that is what they do, they tell us what is important. And how is it that "they have concluded that there was a coverup"? Has the media had access to all factual information while Article 32 proceedings are underway? If so, then there is a chance that all involved will walk upon appeal if convicted.


When you live day in and day out with actual threats and lead buzzing around your head, see your buddies bodies savaged by inhuman devices of combat like the IEDs, and are facing an enemy that doesn't comply by the established rules of combat the innocent may fall vicitm in the process. Where is your outrage at those that hide within the civilian populace that bring the violence into the homes of the innocent?




Is it your intent to exact revenge on these Marines accused in this case for the wrongs of the 1960s done by different men? What was discovered about My Lai was that those soldiers were ordered to do what they did and all they did was follow those orders. Which might be the case here, I don't know. I am still not convinced as to the innocence of most of those that died in Haditha.

My friend, an administrative investigation headed by a two-star Army general has concluded in the Haditha case that the Marines killed the civilians without provocation, some execution- style, and then lied to cover up their conduct. A separate investigation of the incident could lead to criminal charges, including murder and dereliction of duty counts. These were the ACTUAL results of the first investigation.

My intent is not to extract revenge on the wrongs of the 1960s. My hope is that these wrongs are not repeated as these kinds of incidents separate us from our enemy. You are right, our enemy does not follow rules but does that mean we should stoop to their level? Will that help us win the war on terror?
If this massacre happened and we let it go unpunished as some as suggested, does that not make us as guilty as the terrorists? These kinds of actions are used by the insurgents to show that americans are the terrorists.
Thats what bothers me. Innocent AMERICAN soilders will probably die in retaliation attacks as a result of the massacre. War is war my friend. The enemy will hide amongst the innocent, so do we take out all the innocent people to make sure we got the right guys? What does that prove? That just makes more enemies.

 

[PJay]

How does one win the war on terror, frstabbo? Any solutions?

 

[frstabbo]

How does one win the war on terror, frstabbo? Any solutions?

The war on terror is not a war we can win. There will always be people in this world who hate what we stand for. You will never exterminate all the terrorists. The best offense is a good defence. Beefing up our borders is the first step. Remember, when we are in Iraq, we are playing on their field. We all know these terrorists would love to destroy america from within. We need to protect the homeland, first and foremost. How can we go after terrorists abroad, yet people (potential terrorists maybe?) are sneaking into our country. Even the mexican military has invaded our homeland. http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/6666879/detail.html.
Here is another sobering thought. 95% of US overseas trade is conducted at the nation's 361 seaports, just 2% of total cargo is inspected. The fact that everyone has access to this information including the terrorists is even more alarming.

 

[czygvtwkr]

The only reason we should pull out of Iraq is if we keep putting our soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen on trial for things done in war as sacrificial lambs for political reasons.

Tactics are changings, from now on if we kill anyone good or bad the bad guys will claim they were an innocent and get the service man/woman put on trial.

W should know better than this, even if the killings are deemed justified by a court martial their career is basically over to appease someone politically.

Defend our defenders please.

 

[frstabbo]

The only reason we should pull out of Iraq is if we keep putting our soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen on trial for things done in war as sacrificial lambs for political reasons.

Tactics are changings, from now on if we kill anyone good or bad the bad guys will claim they were an innocent and get the service man/woman put on trial.

W should know better than this, even if the killings are deemed justified by a court martial their career is basically over to appease someone politically.

Defend our defenders please.

My friend, a war criminal is a war criminal. Period. Evidence is evidence. We know it is a fact that these marines covered up the story. Killing children as they sleep will not be deemed justified. Tactics are not changing. When there is evidence to support a massacre, it will and should be investigated.

 

[Ken King]

My friend, an administrative investigation headed by a two-star Army general has concluded in the Haditha case that the Marines killed the civilians without provocation, some execution- style, and then lied to cover up their conduct. A separate investigation of the incident could lead to criminal charges, including murder and dereliction of duty counts. These were the ACTUAL results of the first investigation.

Well, my friend, the initial probe by Army Lt. General Chiarelli (that’s three stars Bucko) indicated that further investigation was warranted but the conclusions you claim exist are not there and not administrative but criminal in nature thus the present investigation which as of two days ago was represented by Marine General Pace (four stars) as ongoing and not yet complete. He was quoted as saying "We will find out what happened, and we'll make it public," Pace said. "But to speculate right now wouldn't do anybody any good."

My intent is not to extract revenge on the wrongs of the 1960s. My hope is that these wrongs are not repeated as these kinds of incidents separate us from our enemy. You are right, our enemy does not follow rules but does that mean we should stoop to their level? Will that help us win the war on terror?

If you knew anything of war you would know that these horrors will always exist when people are placed in a position of me or them. I’m not saying that makes it right, just that it will always be a part of war.

If this massacre happened and we let it go unpunished as some as suggested, does that not make us as guilty as the terrorists? These kinds of actions are used by the insurgents to show that americans are the terrorists.

That’s a big “IF” and that is what the investigation is all about, did it happen as alleged. Of course the insurgents will use any means to justify their criminal behavior, even fabricating facts to implicate our troops.

Thats what bothers me. Innocent AMERICAN soilders will probably die in retaliation attacks as a result of the massacre. War is war my friend. The enemy will hide amongst the innocent, so do we take out all the innocent people to make sure we got the right guys? What does that prove? That just makes more enemies.

Innocent soldiers are dying by criminal acts everyday over there. The war criminals that are using the IEDs, and not in compliance with the Geneva Conventions, are being given a free pass by the media and you. Why are they being given regard greater then what you will give our own people?

 

[ylexot]

Thats what bothers me. Innocent AMERICAN soilders will probably die in retaliation attacks as a result of the massacre. War is war my friend. The enemy will hide amongst the innocent, so do we take out all the innocent people to make sure we got the right guys? What does that prove? That just makes more enemies.

Well, there would be far less retaliation if the media didn't hype the story (out of sight, out of mind). Of course, then you'd be screaming "cover-up" like you did early in the thread. Just can't win with some people...

The best offense is a good defence.

The saying is that the best defense is a good offense...fight on "their home turf" with our trained soldiers. But you are right that we can never "win" because that would imply that someone signs some treaty or surrenders. Since this is a battle of ideas, the only way to "win" is to get the vast majority of the world to say "terrorism is unacceptable". Thus, "You're either with us or against us." If you are not explicitly against terrorists, terrorism, and every act performed by terrorists, you are tacitly aiding it.

 

[frstabbo]

That’s a big “IF” and that is what the investigation is all about, did it happen as alleged. Of course the insurgents will use any means to justify their criminal behavior, even fabricating facts to implicate our troops.


Innocent soldiers are dying by criminal acts everyday over there. The war criminals that are using the IEDs, and not in compliance with the Geneva Conventions, are being given a free pass by the media and you. Why are they being given regard greater then what you will give our own people?

Well the investigation will uncover the "facts" and when marines are charged, all of you people out there who are against me will see the light. Facts cannot be changed. I would say that a marine who has killed innocent people out of revenge will also say anything he can to save his skin buddy. And it has already been proven that the marines side of the story was not truthful.

As far as bringing up the geneva convention, we seemed to forget that this occupation of iraq is illegal. It broke the UN charter. If the russians decided that bush was a war criminal and invaded the usa and some street gangs used homemade bombs to defend our country, would you be complaining??
I doubt it.

 

[Ken King]

Well the investigation will uncover the "facts" and when marines are charged, all of you people out there who are against me will see the light. Facts cannot be changed. I would say that a marine who has killed innocent people out of revenge will also say anything he can to save his skin buddy. And it has already been proven that the marines side of the story was not truthful.

Are we against you or are we holding to our judicial doctrine of considering one innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law? In this case it will be a military court which is a less forgiving system of justice and holds persons to a higher standard of conduct then typical civilian laws. I, like I suspect most others here, will accept what is determined and that will be that. It will not change my beliefs one way or another as to how I view our troops, nor will it change my loyalty and support for these men and women that gallantly protect our nation.

As far as bringing up the geneva convention, we seemed to forget that this occupation of iraq is illegal. It broke the UN charter. If the russians decided that bush was a war criminal and invaded the usa and some street gangs used homemade bombs to defend our country, would you be complaining??
I doubt it.

Really, are you saying that a nation does not have the inherent right to defend itself when attacked or threatened with attack? Have you forgotten that Iraq never adhered to the requirements for the suspension of hostilities from Gulf War I? Have you forgotten that Iraq regularly targeted and attacked coalition air forces enforcing the UN imposed no fly zones? Have you forgotten that Iraq was given 12 years of opportunity to comply with the demands of full disclosure of their weapons programs? Have you forgotten that Saddam Hussein directly provided financial stipends to those that would act as homicide bombers against our allies? Have you forgotten that Iraq for several decades had displayed hostile intent against it neighbors. Have you forgotten that Iraq used chemical weapons against various sects of its own citizens in what could only be characterized as genocide? Have you forgotten that in 1998 the US passed and made a law titled the Iraq Liberation Act making it a national objective to remove Saddam Hussein from power based on his threat to not only the United States but the world as a whole?

So if you are certain of this allegation please cite the specific national or international law where it states that we are performing an illegal act. We are doing nothing but protecting our nation with regard to Iraq and the threat that they had become.

 

[gumbo]

Some of our marines are a disgrace. Just because insurgents killed one of our marines with a bomb, that does not give us the right to slaughter innocent women and children. A shameful day for america. Iraq's my lai..Disgusting.



http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198977,00.html

I have kept my two cents to myself, but once again the rampant retarded rants of those who don't have the common sense God gave an animal cracker has got me a little hot under the collar.

When the higher powers of our Government dropped the A bomb, knowing thousand of innocent women ,men and children would be killed.
No one screamed disgrace, disgusting and shameful.

When the higher powers decide to bomb a town, village or city where the known enemy is located.
The high powers calculate an acceptable amount of casualties known as our own troops, women,men and children.
But no one screams disgrace, disgusting. and shameful.

Let me remind you these are the best minds in our government making these decisions.

So please explain to me why it is so ####ing disgraceful, disgusting and shameful that a few not so bright, scared out of their minds, jar heads made a bad decision. Not to mention deprived of sleep. Exactly how well do you think you would sleep in a war zone?

BTW: I shouldn't even be replying to a moron that doesn't even have the common courtesy to capitalize his or her own countries name.

 

[BuddyLee]

BTW: I shouldn't even be replying to a moron that doesn't even have the common courtesy to capitalize his or her own countries name.

I was hoping that someone else would catch that.

 

[frstabbo]

I have kept my two cents to myself, but once again the rampant retarded rants of those who don't have the common sense God gave an animal cracker has got me a little hot under the collar.

When the higher powers of our Government dropped the A bomb, knowing thousand of innocent women ,men and children would be killed.
No one screamed disgrace, disgusting and shameful.

When the higher powers decide to bomb a town, village or city where the known enemy is located.
The high powers calculate an acceptable amount of casualties known as our own troops, women,men and children.
But no one screams disgrace, disgusting. and shameful.

Let me remind you these are the best minds in our government making these decisions.

So please explain to me why it is so ####ing disgraceful, disgusting and shameful that a few not so bright, scared out of their minds, jar heads made a bad decision. Not to mention deprived of sleep. Exactly how well do you think you would sleep in a war zone?

BTW: I shouldn't even be replying to a moron that doesn't even have the common courtesy to capitalize his or her own countries name.

I see were back to name calling. Go ahead call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better.
I'll respond to your analysis of the a bomb because those people who who were killed actually stopped the war. Just as Im sure if we vaporized Iraq, Iran and all the other countries/dictators against us would listen. Problem is, we arn't the only one with the bomb as was the case back then.

Im sure the marines are getting more sleep than the women and children they may have murdered. Dont give me this pressure sh**. If that were the case, then im sure many more marines would be under investigation. We are taking about a very few. I know and appreciate that 99.9999999 percent of our marines are professional and I am proud of those. My problem is with the minority who may have commited war crimes. Call me what ever you want, but this american will not turn a blind eye to murdered women and children. These were not unavoidable casualties, these were possible war crimes.

 

[BuddyLee]

Problem is, we arn't the only one with the bomb as was the case back then.

Too bad we have more.

 

[BuddyLee]

these were possible war crimes.

'Possible' and nothing more or less to date.

 

[frstabbo]

'Possible' and nothing more or less to date.

Agreed. lets wait and see what happens.

 

[gumbo]

I see were back to name calling. Go ahead call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better.
I'll respond to your analysis of the a bomb because those people who who were killed actually stopped the war. Just as Im sure if we vaporized Iraq, Iran and all the other countries/dictators against us would listen. Problem is, we arn't the only one with the bomb as was the case back then.

And how does this make it any less disgraceful, disgusting and shameful?
They drop bombs all the time during any war.

Im sure the marines are getting more sleep than the women and children they may have murdered. Dont give me this pressure sh**. If that were the case, then im sure many more marines would be under investigation. We are taking about a very few. I know and appreciate that 99.9999999 percent of our marines are professional and I am proud of those. My problem is with the minority who may have commited war crimes. Call me what ever you want, but this american will not turn a blind eye to murdered women and children. These were not unavoidable casualties, these were possible war crimes.[/

QUOTE]
Professional are some and allot of them are 18 to 21 years old with less than 6 months trainning doing the best they can. Don't you even start running your mouth about sleep. Not knowing if you will wake up, trying to sleep with the crap you've seen, trying to sleep with the sound of gun fire. And I have noticed your sorry azz still don't know how to capitalize the name America.
Your a piece of sheot and this conversion is now over.
I'm outta karma right now Red~Gumbo stay tuned.

 

[RangerJohn]

Ummmmm....scuse me. Where are all these real friends?? Most of the world hates us.

I totally agree with Homesick (imagine that)

President Insmd would have had this war over in 2 weeks!!! Osama would be dust. Gas would be $.90 per gallon and as stated in another thread, a moat would be built along Mexico.


And I'd be unanimously reelected!!

BS....who is gonna pick the damned lettuce for my Caesar Salad?