What am I missing about this???

[Stjohns3269]

(a) If you don't think there are groups who are seeking to manipulate public opinion for their benefit, well....

(b) I disagree. The markets are reacting to non-specific fears about a (possible) global pandemic. We tend to fear what we don't understand. And we don't yet fully understand this coronoavirus. More importantly, not fully understanding it doesn't mean anything more than that.

(c) Would love to see links in support of this as I have watched him lend support to what the experts are recommending. Or is it that he denies the advice of those you choose to see as correct?

(d) First, this is mid-reading. Second, your assertion is patently false.

(e) Again, mind-reading.

(f) Because leaders are paid to set a positive example. This is the exact opposite of Nero fiddling (which is what it seems to me you're trying to assert). I would be curious as to your thoughts on Obama's dealings with Ebola (given that's the comparison on offer in the media). Obama didn't take actions being demanded of Trump yet Ebola is a far more dangerous disease. Not that you're saying this directly, but how is what Obama did okay yet what Trump is doing not (okay?). BTW, I didn't have anything specifically against what Obama did so I'm not playing the "whatabout" game. What I'm saying is that political games are being played (back then with the #Anti-Obamas and today with the #Anti-Trumpers). Not helpful, so we should do our best not to play. But, of course, it is expected.

(g) What's your basis for this opinion? What are your metrics? This comment seems to be borne more out of frustration/anxiety/other things than any solid proof.

(h) This is not at all how I understand this. We have vaccines against certain strains of the flu (to include coronaviruses). However, as I understand it, flu vaccines are more of a dart throwing exercise (i.e., best guess) than an exact science. As I am not an epidemiologist I'm open to being educated on this. So help me out if you are one or can point me to one.

(i) It's only novel in the sense that it's a new variant.

(j) This applies to any disease. There are new forms of diseases popping up all the time, be it viruses or bacteria (e.g., TB). So not sure why it's more important here (other than the fear that is causing it to appear more important).

(k) What's puzzling to me is the lack of "this is what I would do" and explanations as to the economic ramifications of any suggestion. My point is that while I agree the global economy is suffering as a result of the coronavirus it hasn't collapsed the global economy. And that's the goal of this administration: to get the country through the coronavirus (scare). Reactions against what the administration is doing don't seem to realize (or are willing to admit) that their suggestions would collapse the global economy. That's both disingenuous (because they're not willing to admit the cost of their suggestions) and dangerous (because it's all being done to score relatively meaningless political points).

As always, am interested in entertaining ideas how to better deal with the issue (with supporting rationales as to how these alternatives are better for the economy). Yup, the markets are plunging, but Ill take a wounded market over an annihilated market. Maybe the coronavirus causes us to eventually reached the latter, but I prefer not to hasten the process or certainty of getting there.

Cheers. Join me in keeping calm and carrying on.

End of line (MCP)

B) These are not non existent fears. There are already economic losses associated with this pandemic, Major sports and Music events have been cancelled, train and air travel is down, hotels and tourism are suffering. Supply chains are distrupted thus causing more economic problems. This combined with the inept response and uncertainty are what is causing the markets to react. These are actual costs.

C. Trumps has said " It's their new hoax" " I didn't know people died from the Flu" " can't we just use the Flu vaccine" These are reassuring statements based on scientific evidence? He has put Pence in charge of the response, Pence who oversaw the largest HIV outbreak in IV drug users in Indiana due to his oversight. He has also over ruled the CDC decision to ask older people to stay home and not travel. All of this shows he has no idea what he is doing and fails to inspire confidence.

D. It is absolutely true and many world leaders have echoed the fact that they no longer look to the US for guidance or leadership.

F. Ebola was contained and has rapid onset and extremely recognizable symptoms. It is not possible for an ebola victim to board a plane to another country and function in society for days without knowing they are ill unlike this disease which can be spread for days before it is apparent the person is sick or has this particular illness.

H. Flu vaccines are a mixture of all the known variants of flu that we have vaccines for. Its not dart throwing. It give you immunity to the known strains. Why would you conflate science with a random game of chance? It shows your understanding of germ theory and science is deeply flawed.

I. Yes that is the very definition of novel. I don't know what point you are making here.

K. Telling people to follow the CDC's recommendations, to travel a little as possible for the meantime and to telework and avoid large crowds are not going to stop the economy any more than it has already been disrupted. . None of the above things have been said by Trump and in fact he has pushed back against the CDC statements and implied the disease was somehow a hoax

China did it in the effected areas and it seems their rate of transmission is dropping. Are you saying the Trump white house is less efficient then China? Or our economy is more fragile?

And right on time Trump tweets more misleading information about the Virus.


It seems the major of the fake news and propaganda is coming from inside the house

Trump on coronavirus: The flu is worse

President Trump attempted to dismiss coronavirus fears with a misleading tweet comparing the virus causing the global health crisis to the seasonal flu.

www.aol.com

 

[Chris0nllyn]

You know what? I just want ONE sane lefty to discuss issues with. Just one. They always start out pretending to be reasonable, but the TDS and cultbot parroting always come out.

Oh please. You don't want to discuss anything with anyone who shares a different viewpoint. You want to make up the stuff you continuously do that isn't based on reality, then when they don't blindly accept your "argument", you tell them you're done with that crap and put them on ignore.

If you were at all interested in debate with someone with a differing viewpoint, your ignore list wouldn't be so long.

 

[Stjohns3269]

"Someone" can. But this wasn't of Trump's doing. Change my mind.

--- End of line (MCP)

I thought the last three years of growth were all due to Trumps ability to play 3-d chess? You guys were crowing everyday about how it wasn't Obama's economy he inherited and that your 401K's were getting fat.

How can you conflate these two opinions? It no different than when people say Orange man bad except now you are saying Orange man good. no matter what the results.

 

[Spitfire]

Because Trump isn't the one responsible for this "flush" at all..

Of course he is. He’s been responsible for the gains, right??

LOL

You people are nothing if not predictable.

 

[itsbob]

Of course he is. He’s been responsible for the gains, right??

LOL

You people are nothing if not predictable.

And you've proved yourself to be nothing short of a rock with lips..

The market is based purely on emotion, of what's to come.. you scare an entire populace with fake news, and fake predictions the market will dump. Congrats to the Liberals, and the Liberal media, they found a way to (at last temporarily) destroy our economy, just to make Trump look bad. They KNOW they can't beat him if the economy is doing good, so let's make crap up and hurt our own country.

What will be amazing is when this all blows over and the market rebounds leading into November and there is no way to stop it.

I'm curious who you think "you people" is.

 

[Stjohns3269]

And you've proved yourself to be nothing short of a rock with lips..

The market is based purely on emotion, of what's to come.. you scare an entire populace with fake news, and fake predictions the market will dump. Congrats to the Liberals, and the Liberal media, they found a way to (at last temporarily) destroy our economy, just to make Trump look bad. They KNOW they can't beat him if the economy is doing good, so let's make crap up and hurt our own country.

What will be amazing is when this all blows over and the market rebounds leading into November and there is no way to stop it.

I'm curious who you think "you people" is.

What is the ":fake news" here? Do you not believe corona virus is real?

Many on here said Trump was inspiring confidence that he would be friendly to business and that was why the market was going up. How can you now say the markets going down are not due to Trump not inspiring confidence he can handle an actual pandemic?

You cant have it both ways

 

[Spitfire]

And you've proved yourself to be nothing short of a rock with lips..

The market is based purely on emotion, of what's to come.. you scare an entire populace with fake news, and fake predictions the market will dump. Congrats to the Liberals, and the Liberal media, they found a way to (at last temporarily) destroy our economy, just to make Trump look bad. They KNOW they can't beat him if the economy is doing good, so let's make crap up and hurt our own country.

What will be amazing is when this all blows over and the market rebounds leading into November and there is no way to stop it.

I'm curious who you think "you people" is.

Greetings:

You are clueless.

Liberals destroying economy to make Trump look bad? LO-freaking-L. You sound like a homeless person muttering nonsense on the street.

Do walk me through your charge - the liberals destroying the economy to make Trump look bad part - walk me through step by step.

 

[Kyle]

Obama Announces He Is No Longer Responsible For The Economy

"All the gains were mine -- Trump didn't build that -- but this crash is all on Trump," Obama said as he admired the ocean, which will consume his home in fewer than twelve years. "My responsibility for the great economic gains the country ended the moment the stocks started to tank this morning."

Obama Announces He Is No Longer Responsible For The Economy

MARTHA'S VINEYARD, MA—From his seaside mansion, former president Barack Obama announced today that he is formally passing ownership of the stock market and economy on to President Trump.

babylonbee.com

 

[Spitfire]

Greetings:

About kyle’s speed and normal level of discourse.

 

[itsbob]

What is the ":fake news" here? Do you not believe corona virus is real?

Many on here said Trump was inspiring confidence that he would be friendly to business and that was why the market was going up. How can you now say the markets going down are not due to Trump not inspiring confidence he can handle an actual pandemic?

You cant have it both ways

Because it's not both ways.. Trump isn't on the news and the media being hysterical about the Corona Virus..

Just today.. 3, a whole THREE people in MD have Corona.. that warrants a news conference from the Governor.. more than that died in Baltimore just last weekend.. no news conference for them, and the people with the Virus aren't DEAD!??

If you don't see this for what it is, I can't fault you.. your education system has failed you.

Remember when this first started and Trump blocked travel from China.. what did the democrats say?? Yeah.. they aren't taking advantage of a bad situation at all.

 

[Kyle]

Greetings:

About kyle’s speed and normal level of discourse.

Isn't it time for you to change back to one of your other accounts so you can your own posts?

 

[Clem72]

I thought the last three years of growth were all due to Trumps ability to play 3-d chess?

I think the term is 4-d chess. Everyone that plays chess plays 3-d chess.

 

[Yooper]

B) These are not non existent fears. There are already economic losses associated with this pandemic, Major sports and Music events have been cancelled, train and air travel is down, hotels and tourism are suffering. Supply chains are distrupted thus causing more economic problems. This combined with the inept response and uncertainty are what is causing the markets to react. These are actual costs.

C. Trumps has said " It's their new hoax" " I didn't know people died from the Flu" " can't we just use the Flu vaccine" These are reassuring statements based on scientific evidence? He has put Pence in charge of the response, Pence who oversaw the largest HIV outbreak in IV drug users in Indiana due to his oversight. He has also over ruled the CDC decision to ask older people to stay home and not travel. All of this shows he has no idea what he is doing and fails to inspire confidence.

D. It is absolutely true and many world leaders have echoed the fact that they no longer look to the US for guidance or leadership.

F. Ebola was contained and has rapid onset and extremely recognizable symptoms. It is not possible for an ebola victim to board a plane to another country and function in society for days without knowing they are ill unlike this disease which can be spread for days before it is apparent the person is sick or has this particular illness.

H. Flu vaccines are a mixture of all the known variants of flu that we have vaccines for. Its not dart throwing. It give you immunity to the known strains. Why would you conflate science with a random game of chance? It shows your understanding of germ theory and science is deeply flawed.

I. Yes that is the very definition of novel. I don't know what point you are making here.

K. Telling people to follow the CDC's recommendations, to travel a little as possible for the meantime and to telework and avoid large crowds are not going to stop the economy any more than it has already been disrupted. . None of the above things have been said by Trump and in fact he has pushed back against the CDC statements and implied the disease was somehow a hoax

China did it in the effected areas and it seems their rate of transmission is dropping. Are you saying the Trump white house is less efficient then China? Or our economy is more fragile?

I would disagree with you on some of this (in both the micro and the macro), but overall, fair points. Thank you for the reply. Nicely done.

I thought the last three years of growth were all due to Trumps ability to play 3-d chess? You guys were crowing everyday about how it wasn't Obama's economy he inherited and that your 401K's were getting fat.

How can you conflate these two opinions? It no different than when people say Orange man bad except now you are saying Orange man good. no matter what the results.

I think there's a conflation here of the things Trump may have been playing 3-D chess with and the market gains.

There's no 3-D chess when a leader a) removes administrative restrictions that were throttling the economy and b) acts like an optimistic leader. Trump makes outrageous statements (both in the good sense and bad) to focus people on his optimism. Just like any good leader: Washington (throughout the Revolution), Lincoln (during the Civil War), FDR (1st inauguration, post-Pearl Harbor), Truman (Berlin Crisis), Bush 43 (after 9/11), etc. That some don't like what picture Trump is displaying is more politics than understanding leadership and the qualities of a good leader.

Contrast this with the generally "down vibes" of, say, Jimmie Carter. Carter may have been more truthful/honest in telling the American People about American society's malaise at the time, but all he did by acknowledging it was to make it worse. It was tone deaf and a major reason why Reagan won the election. Bush 41 made similar mistakes in his tone deafness (why Clinton won).

One can claim Trump is nothing but "smoke and mirrors" (and that might be quite accurate), but ALL good/great leaders understand the value - nay, the necessity - of "smoke and mirrors." So if that's what you mean by 3-D chess and the up market and why you seem to have conflated the two, okay. I just choose to see it as smart, effective leadership. That he isn't everyone's cup of tea because he's a playboy, from New York, is brash and for some rude (normal New York behavior) doesn't take away from his leadership. Same can be said when similar things were thrown at Lincoln the hayseed, FDR the elite cripple, etc.

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[SamSpade]

rhetorical onanism.

I'm gonna use that one.

 

[Yooper]

I'm gonna use that one.

Enjoy! Would only ask that which I asked of Vrai; that you toss me credit from time to time so even though I'll never know you're using it I'll feel it through The Force!

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[SamSpade]

Enjoy! Would only ask that which I asked of Vrai; that you toss me credit from time to time so even though I'll never know you're using it I'll feel it through The Force!

--- End of line (MCP)

BTW - nice comments on this thread. Saves me the trouble.

 

[Stjohns3269]

I would disagree with you on some of this (in both the micro and the macro), but overall, fair points. Thank you for the reply. Nicely done.


I think there's a conflation here of the things Trump may have been playing 3-D chess with and the market gains.

There's no 3-D chess when a leader a) removes administrative restrictions that were throttling the economy and b) acts like an optimistic leader. Trump makes outrageous statements (both in the good sense and bad) to focus people on his optimism. Just like any good leader: Washington (throughout the Revolution), Lincoln (during the Civil War), FDR (1st inauguration, post-Pearl Harbor), Truman (Berlin Crisis), Bush 43 (after 9/11), etc. That some don't like what picture Trump is displaying is more politics than understanding leadership and the qualities of a good leader.

Contrast this with the generally "down vibes" of, say, Jimmie Carter. Carter may have been more truthful/honest in telling the American People about American society's malaise at the time, but all he did by acknowledging it was to make it worse. It was tone deaf and a major reason why Reagan won the election. Bush 41 made similar mistakes in his tone deafness (why Clinton won).

One can claim Trump is nothing but "smoke and mirrors" (and that might be quite accurate), but ALL good/great leaders understand the value - nay, the necessity - of "smoke and mirrors." So if that's what you mean by 3-D chess and the up market and why you seem to have conflated the two, okay. I just choose to see it as smart, effective leadership. That he isn't everyone's cup of tea because he's a playboy, from New York, is brash and for some rude (normal New York behavior) doesn't take away from his leadership. Same can be said when similar things were thrown at Lincoln the hayseed, FDR the elite cripple, etc.

--- End of line (MCP)

I hear what you are saying and agree that in both good and bad times we look to our leaders for guidance. I don't believe that polluting our rivers, lakes and especially the bay through the loosening of the clean water act is a net positive way to encourage economic growth nor many other of the myriad of ways the Trump admin has artificially goosed the numbers. Like the loosening of workplace protections and social security programs. However we will have to agree to disagree.


My issue is that just as you say much of what Trump has done has been smoke and mirrors that is the exact way he is handling this crisis.

Take this latest tweet for example. It mischaracterizes the dangers of the disease and continues to try to make people believe this is some sort of over blown hoax.

Instead of the Fireside chats with a competent leader with the oration skills and mental acumen to understand the country needs reassurance Trump is trying to downplay the risks through trickery and omission. Assuming his supporters are now so used to the idea of hoaxes and conspiracy lurking everywhere that they will just blindly believe this is another one.

Trump on coronavirus: The flu is worse

President Trump attempted to dismiss coronavirus fears with a misleading tweet comparing the virus causing the global health crisis to the seasonal flu.

www.aol.com

 

[itsbob]

I hear what you re saying and agree that in both god and bad times we look to our leaders for guidance. I don't believe that polluting our rivers, lakes and especially the bay through the loosen of the clean water act is a net positive way to encourage economic growth nor many other of the myriad of ways the Trump admin has artificially goosed the numbers.

Which waterways have been polluted because of Trump's policies.. exactly??

 

[Stjohns3269]

Which waterways have been polluted because of Trump's policies.. exactly??

This just happened last month so we cant possibly know that yet. But thats your take away? You ignore all the rest where you claim this isa ll a big hoax?

Trump Administration Cuts Back Federal Protections For Streams And Wetlands

The controversial rule change dramatically reduces pollution protections for many waterways. Farmers and builders approve, but environmental groups plan to challenge it.

www.npr.org

 

[Yooper]

Instead of the Fireside chats with a competent leader with the oration skills and mental acumen to understand the country needs reassurance Trump is trying to downplay the risks through trickery and omission. Assuming his supporters are now so used to the idea of hoaxes and conspiracy lurking everywhere that they will just blindly believe this is another one.

Trump on coronavirus: The flu is worse

President Trump attempted to dismiss coronavirus fears with a misleading tweet comparing the virus causing the global health crisis to the seasonal flu.

www.aol.com

Okay, but not at all seeing that. I am seeing that in the article you linked to. Honestly, in an age where intellectual dishonesty has become far too much of the norm, Stableford's article is truly awful.

Here's his bio:

Dylan Stableford, Senior Writer for Yahoo

Dylan Stableford is a senior writer for Yahoo News, covering breaking news and national affairs. Previously, he served as a senior editor at The Wrap, digital editor at Folio magazine, managing editor at Mediabistro.com and a producer at MTV.com. He has also contributed to numerous publications...

www.yahoo.com

There is NOTHING in it to suggest he is at all competent (as in, specialties) to opine as he does (there is, however, a definite political orientation that would explain his take). Frankly, his take is irresponsible.

First, it is Trump who is correct, not Stableford. AT THIS POINT, the seasonal flu is far worse than the coronavirus.

Second, he quotes all these closures as proof as to how bad this all is. But the closures aren't an indication of how bad the coronavirus is, they are an indication of how bad some think the coronavirus is. There's a HUGE difference between the two. These precautions may be warranted and as such I appreciate the preventative measures entities are taking. HOWEVER, when Stableford uses them to increase the level of fear/panic that's awfull.

Going slow (rather than fast) is essential here. For numerous reasons we do NOT want an over-reaction. See my next post.

--- End of line (MCP)