What is it about the gays?..

[czygvtwkr]

Actually, according to the laws of this land, he does NOT have the right to refuse service to whoever he wants. If a baker sells cakes, and they want a cake, he can't refuse based on them being gay, black, a woman, age, or disabled. It is what it is, even if many disagree with it. Its still the law.

It's easy: "I'm sorry I am so busy I can not support anything in that time frame, may I suggest Mark, Rick, and Steve's bakery down the street." "Or if you want to change the date to 3 months away I can support you"

Easy Peasy, no hurt feelings, etc.

 

[Larry Gude]

What's the difference between someone refusing service to blacks, whites, Irish, whomever and a Christian business refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Anyone?

None.

That's the point.

 

[Larry Gude]

It's easy: "I'm sorry I am so busy I can not support anything in that time frame, may I suggest Mark, Rick, and Steve's bakery down the street." "Or if you want to change the date to 3 months away I can support you"

Easy Peasy, no hurt feelings, etc.

I have NO doubt that this was a 'hit', ie, it became known this guy didn't want to serve gays. I have no doubt a plan was hatched to provoke this confrontation and make an example of him.

Anyone who wants to make a BFD about cakes and their faith, anyone who wants that sort of attention, is probably going to get it.

 

[Amused_despair]

What's the difference between someone refusing service to blacks, whites, Irish, whomever and a Christian business refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Anyone?

Probably for the same difference between the time when the Bible was used to justify slavery in this country and now it is not. If you do not want to serve gays and you also do not serve people who live in sin with each other, who work on the Sabbath (and the orignal Sabbath was Saturday if we are invoking Old Testament rules and laws), you do not serve people who eat animals who do not chew their own cud, fish that do not have scales, etc, etc, etc. then maybe there is an effective argument (and a VERY tiny customer base) if they are picking and choosing what laws they want to enforce like the Bible is a legal salad bar then the religious argument loses some of its gusto. Besides, if Jesus said sell all that you own and give the proceeds to the poor, why does the Christian baker still own a bakery anyways? If they are using the Good Book as a playbook for their lfie, use it from coverr to cover not just the stuff on page 1134.

 

[Beta]

What's the difference between someone refusing service to blacks, whites, Irish, whomever and a Christian business refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Anyone?

There isn't one. That's a very slippery slope. Next thing you know, that Christian business can turn down Muslims, white churches will keep out black people (fear of gospel music), etc. If it's OK to discriminate against someone for religious reasons, and religion is a very loose concept that's different from person to person, there would be no limits to what a person could discriminate against. Then we're back to segregation. Is that really where we're evolving?

And since when did religion say not to serve "sinners?" Didn't Jesus serve sinners and say love thy neighbor? Can you point out somewhere in the bible that tells you not to serve homosexuals?

 

[baydoll]

None.

That's the point.

Let me help you there, Larry. The key words are RACE vs. SEXUAL PREFERENCES.

 

[baydoll]

There isn't one. That's a very slippery slope. Next thing you know, that Christian business can turn down Muslims, white churches will keep out black people (fear of gospel music), etc. If it's OK to discriminate against someone for religious reasons, and religion is a very loose concept that's different from person to person, there would be no limits to what a person could discriminate against. Then we're back to segregation. Is that really where we're evolving?

And since when did religion say not to serve "sinners?" Didn't Jesus serve sinners and say love thy neighbor? Can you point out somewhere in the bible that tells you not to serve homosexuals?

And again. Can you show me any Christian Business that refuses to serve someone because of the color of their skin? And when did any Christian business not serve anyone because they are SINNERS?

The bakery refused to BAKE A WEDDING CAKE, for pete's sake. Hey! Don't like it? Go elsewhere. Stop being a whiny little baby...

OH boo-hoo! That mean old Christian baker wouldn't bake me and my girlfriend/boyfriend a wedding cake!

 

[baydoll]

Probably for the same difference between the time when the Bible was used to justify slavery in this country an dnow it is not. if you do not want to serve gays and you also do not serve people who live in sin with each other, who work on the Sabbath (and the orignal Sabbath was Saturday if we are invoking Old Testament rules and laws), you do not serve people who eat animals who do not chew their own cud, fish that do not have scales, etc, etc, etc. then maybe there is an effective argument (and a VERY tiny customer base) if they are picking and choosing what laws they want to enforce like the Bible is a legal salad bar then the religious argument loses some of its gusto. Besides, if Jesus said sell all that you own and give the proceeds to the poor, why does the Christian baker still own a bakery anyways? If they are using the Good Book as a playbook for their lfie, use it from coverr to cover not just the stuff on page 1134.

What?!

 

[Larry Gude]

Let me help you there, Larry. The key words are RACE vs. SEXUAL PREFERENCES.

Would you mind sharing with the class when you chose your sexual preferences?

 

[baydoll]

When all you say is "fags suck, you're going to hell!" and not providing any additional info, that's useless. If you don't talk about adultery, loving thy neighbor, not throwing stones, and the other thousands of lessons in the OT and NT, then you're not really sharing "the word."

Well I agree with you on that one. When "Christians" (and I'm using that term loosely with those folks) say things like 'fags suck, you're going to hell' I REALLY question how much those folks actually know Christ.


Not much from the sounds of it.

 

[baydoll]

Would you mind sharing with the class when you chose your sexual preferences?

And that has what to do with the color of one's skin?

 

[Zguy28]

Not really. The question I posed was why homosexuality or transgender brings out so much anger in so many Christians? I didn't argue against it being a sin, it clearly is, however this particular sin tends to make people lose their minds.

So, getting back to the original question... maybe those folks aren't Christians?

 

[Zguy28]

And here is an article I posted a while back regarding Larry's question (except its a photographer). It bears reposting I think. Its by Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/artic...ographer-work-at-a-same-sex-wedding-ceremony/

And also his response to some criticism of that article:

http://erlc.com/article/are-christians-hypocritical-on-weddings-and-conscience-protection

He makes a very good example of a hypothetical in it:

Should a Christian (or Muslim or Orthodox Jewish or feminist New Age) web designer be compelled to develop a site platform for a legal pornography company?

 

[Beta]

And again. Can you show me any Christian Business that refuses to serve someone because of the color of their skin? And when did any Christian business not serve anyone because they are SINNERS?

The bakery refused to BAKE A WEDDING CAKE, for pete's sake. Hey! Don't like it? Go elsewhere. Stop being a whiny little baby...

OH boo-hoo! That mean old Christian baker wouldn't bake me and my girlfriend/boyfriend a wedding cake!

I don't know of any "Christian" bakery that has turned down black people these days, but I'm sure it happened in the old days all the time. My point is that if you allow one religious lenience (Christian baker doesn't serve gays) then it's the beginning of a slippery slope. If I make the claim that my religion says I can't serve Muslims, or Arabs, or blacks, or whatever...who can argue? That one Christian guy says he can't serve gays while most Christians do, so why can't another say he can't serve blacks? :shrug:

As for "And when did any Christian business not serve anyone because they are SINNERS?" -- based on what I'm reading, many of you are saying that homosexuality is a sin (which I argue is equal to numerous other sins we all commit). That seems to be this baker's basis for not serving them, right? So he's selectively not serving specific sinners. I was asking where the bible says not to serve sinners. Or does it only tell you not to serve homosexuals? I'm looking for the religious basis that makes the actions acceptable.

Well I agree with you on that one. When "Christians" (and I'm using that term loosely with those folks) say things like 'fags suck, you're going to hell' I REALLY question how much those folks actually know Christ.


Not much from the sounds of it.

Exactly. But I feel like most people who use religion as their crutch don't "actually know Christ," which is the problem. They selectively choose bible passages to support their argument and ignore the full story, or ignore the rest that refutes or better explains it.

 

[Larry Gude]

And that has what to do with the color of one's skin?

You said 'choice' in regards to sex and that isn't how it works. Unless, of course, you chose your desires and passions?

 

[MMDad]

Well I agree with you on that one. When "Christians" (and I'm using that term loosely with those folks) say things like 'fags suck, you're going to hell' I REALLY question how much those folks actually know Christ.


Not much from the sounds of it.

And that's why WBC fails. As soon as I see a sign that starts with "God Hates" I stop reading. They have nothing to offer me. I do not believe that God hates anyone. God loves every one of us unconditionally. It doesn't matter what we do, God's love is there for us. It is our choice wether we want to accept it or not.

That's why the vitriol from some in the name of God is offensive to me. Hate is a human failing, and ascribing it to God is just wrong.

 

[PsyOps]

True that. Jesus offended lots of people with his words.

However, with the bakery owner, was he or she wrong to not want to support a gay marriage because it was against their belief system? I can see their perspective. Why should one be forced to act against their personal moral beliefs? :shrug:

Me personally, I think your business it's your choice on who you serve or don't serve. Unless it's a publically owned company. I don't think the government is in the right on forcing you to serve customers you don't want to serve. But that is a big government vs libertarian issue. Not a religious one.

From the standpoint of liberty and America, I respect the bakery for taking their stance. From a Chistian POV they blew an opportunity to minister to someone they believe are ‘sick’.

Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” – Luke 5:29-32

 

[ProximaCentauri]

So, getting back to the original question... maybe those folks aren't Christians?

The Westboro Baptists and others self-identify as Christians. Whether or not you, or anyone else, would say 'they are not acting like Christians, therefore they are not true Christians', is irrelevant. This is the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

 

[PsyOps]

I have no clue what you are going on about.

You refusing to serve me because of what I serve you because of what you believe is contrary to what Christ told us? What?? !!!

If Jesus acted what way? You're equating someone who refused to bake a WEDDING CAKE for a gay couple's marriage for pete's sake to stoning a woman for prositution???!!!

Good grief, man!

Offend someone, how is not going along with the gay agenda offending someone? Oh that's right! It's not nice to offend ANYONE EXCEPT THOSE HYPOCRITICAL SELF RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS of course.

And I have no idea what you’re going on about. I am not offended by what gays do, or anyone else for that matter. As a biblical matter (which is the standard Christians are supposed to follow) you can read my previous post where Jesus was questioned for this exact same thing; serving up to sinners. These bakers showed how willing they are to judge rather than love, and how unwilling they are to serve. And I don’t mean serving a cake. Perhaps those are the HYPOCRITICAL SELF RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS we need to be talking about; those that claim to be full of God’s love, then spitting in someone’s face for being sinners.

And for a true measure of what this means, even when Jesus was being crucified – one of the most torturous ways to die – he still forgave them “FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO”.

 

[Radiant1]

The Westboro Baptists and others self-identify as Christians. Whether or not you, or anyone else, would say 'they are not acting like Christians, therefore they are not true Christians', is irrelevant. This is the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

Exactly. I'm sure the bakery owner thinks himself more Christian than, say, Baydoll or myself.