I understand that. Anybody can do anything if they are determined. However, the minimum mandatory sentence of five years has deterred many felons from not possessing firearms. Many sex offenders that are arrested don't have access to firearms because they aren't easily accessible. My point is, I am not opposed to people having ccw's, I just think they should have to pass stringent background investigations, with possibly polygraph and phsyc, evaluations. While nothing's failsafe, I think that would eliminate many issues. What's wrong with that idea?
desertrat
0_0
Nothing maybe. I think a thorough background inverstigation would be enought though. Kind of like getting a secret clearance. It would involve talking to friends, coworkers, etc., plus an interview.
So you want to pre screen who gets to use the second amendment?
desertrat
0_0
I hope he was talking about CCW permits.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
The primary...
...issue I have is twofold;
#1; the murderer at Va Tech proved that when we have mental evaluations and and information, we don't do anything about it anyway. We do not need another inch of gun laws until well after we address all the existing issues inherent in and surrounding current laws. It's kinda like 9/11; if we'd let the systems and laws in place simply work, we'd have been fine but we do not have the will to do anything once we've got useful information.
My second, and larger issue is akin to the first; we don't have societally acceptable judgements of folks. If you go to jail and serve your time, you should have full rights of a citizen again. If you haven't paid enough of a penalty, then we're not sentencing people fairly. If you have paid fairly, you're a citizen again after you pay your price. Further, what is too crazy to have a gun? How did someone make it to full adult hood, presumably in fine, law abiding shape in the first place if they are 'too' crazy? Back to that judgement thing again. Like Va Tech kid, it is known. People have been in trouble, have been evaluated and so forth yet no one is willing to label them;
"Warning; too crazy for firearms".
So, in typical latter 20th century American lawyerly fashion, we take it out on everybody, law abiding or otherwise, just like King George III did.
...issue I have is twofold;
#1; the murderer at Va Tech proved that when we have mental evaluations and and information, we don't do anything about it anyway. We do not need another inch of gun laws until well after we address all the existing issues inherent in and surrounding current laws. It's kinda like 9/11; if we'd let the systems and laws in place simply work, we'd have been fine but we do not have the will to do anything once we've got useful information.
My second, and larger issue is akin to the first; we don't have societally acceptable judgements of folks. If you go to jail and serve your time, you should have full rights of a citizen again. If you haven't paid enough of a penalty, then we're not sentencing people fairly. If you have paid fairly, you're a citizen again after you pay your price. Further, what is too crazy to have a gun? How did someone make it to full adult hood, presumably in fine, law abiding shape in the first place if they are 'too' crazy? Back to that judgement thing again. Like Va Tech kid, it is known. People have been in trouble, have been evaluated and so forth yet no one is willing to label them;
"Warning; too crazy for firearms".
So, in typical latter 20th century American lawyerly fashion, we take it out on everybody, law abiding or otherwise, just like King George III did.
Pushrod
Patriot
I was on board with you Larry until this quote.
What part of "Shall not be infringed" allows for this type of requirement? The state then can charge whatever they want for these courses and schedule them whenever they want?
I guess CCW permit should only be available to those who can afford to protect themselves by paying for these annual courses?
The right of self-defence should be available to everyone equally!
Pushrod
Patriot
Ah, but citizens of Gary, Indiana are not being approved for CCW permits:
Gary, Indiana: Mayor Richard Hatcher let it be known in 1979 that he would not be approving any citizens' concealed carry applications. He then said if they wanted to challenge his authority, they were welcome to take him to court. (from gunowners.org)
Gary, Indiana, .... Concealed-carry permits are regulated more strictly than in most other states. (www.bmsg.org/pdfs/gunPolicy.pdf)
So in a state that has fairly lenient CCW laws, but still allows pre-emption, where cities can make laws stricter than that of the state, Gary has some of the greatest restrictions against CCW and also the highest rates of crime. Kind of blows your theory out of the water.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Allow...
...me to clarify.
It seems reasonable, to me, to have some sort of certification on the state level, akin to a drivers license. There has to be an agreeable starting point somewhere to achieve a good consensus, yes?
I would think that there could be private business that provides the course work with a seal of approval from the state. Some board with government officials, military folks, law enforcement, private citizens, a NRA component, sport shooters, etc, would be the people charged with coming up with the requirements.
So, they set the test; handling your weapon safely, exhibit solid observation of the four rules, weapon storage, weapon carrying, basic marksman ship, shooting range and classroom study of the law and shoot/no shoot scenarios.
So, if you were in the military or a cop and you pass, you pass. If you're Joe Six pack and you pass, you pass. I envision a test that can be done in a few hours. If you don't pass, you take a course. So, conceivably, with a little common sense and time spent with grandpa when you were a kid, you could pass the test on the first try.
How's that sound?
...me to clarify.
It seems reasonable, to me, to have some sort of certification on the state level, akin to a drivers license. There has to be an agreeable starting point somewhere to achieve a good consensus, yes?
I would think that there could be private business that provides the course work with a seal of approval from the state. Some board with government officials, military folks, law enforcement, private citizens, a NRA component, sport shooters, etc, would be the people charged with coming up with the requirements.
So, they set the test; handling your weapon safely, exhibit solid observation of the four rules, weapon storage, weapon carrying, basic marksman ship, shooting range and classroom study of the law and shoot/no shoot scenarios.
So, if you were in the military or a cop and you pass, you pass. If you're Joe Six pack and you pass, you pass. I envision a test that can be done in a few hours. If you don't pass, you take a course. So, conceivably, with a little common sense and time spent with grandpa when you were a kid, you could pass the test on the first try.
How's that sound?
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
So you'd be on board with say, purging all those databases of pedophiles who've served their sentences? Because since they've now paid their "debt", they no longer pose a danger to anyone.
R
RadioPatrol
Guest
WTF is the polygraph for ? and physical exams ?? oh I might have a heart condition so I don't qualify for a weapon ....
the background check makes sense .... and a basic training course ala Military Style ...
a simple NAC ... should suffice ...
and your give your weapon on the spot ....
especially if you already own a weapon, no reason for a waiting period ....
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Explain to me...
...how restoration of rights has anything to do with purging of records, if you'd be so kind.
...how restoration of rights has anything to do with purging of records, if you'd be so kind.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
?? You're kidding?
Convicted pedophiles, due to these records, have a permanent P burned into their forehead. Even if they haven't done anything in years, they pay for it as long as they live. They never do "pay their debt" because the public is always aware of their past and where they live. They don't get to go back to their lives before their conviction. They're pariahs. The debt is never paid.
The rationale for this is - you're still a danger. I agree with this sentiment.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
What would I be...
...kidding about?
Why would you want a pedophiles record purged and what does that have to do with the restored right to keep and bear arms?
I'm not understanding here.
...kidding about?
Why would you want a pedophiles record purged and what does that have to do with the restored right to keep and bear arms?
I'm not understanding here.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
??
Then you're missing the point on purpose.
Pedophiles permanent lose the right to privacy and exposure of their crimes because of the continued danger they pose to the community. Their debt to society can never be paid. They have to live with it. Too friggin' bad.
Someone who shoots someone else in a crime or otherwise is convicted of a felony has demonstrated they cannot be trusted with such rights. That "debt" is never paid - they lose it. Too bad.
DEEKAYPEE8569
Well-Known Member
------------------------------------------------I'm not sure you realize we are on the same side in this.
I need to work on my communication skills I guess.
My Apologies.
The written word can be interpreted in too many ways in forums.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
There's a DAD and two sons that probably wished one of them could have carried htis morning.. at least the wife and mother probably wished they could have done something to protect themselves..
And there's four people in a plastic's factory that who's next of kin probably wish they could have taken the steps, or at least SOMEone in the factory could have been armed.
And there's four people in a plastic's factory that who's next of kin probably wish they could have taken the steps, or at least SOMEone in the factory could have been armed.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
The Stae of MD has taken this to a new 'high'.. ANYONE convicted of a 'sex crime' as defined by state statute, now has to register.
A sex crime in MD can be you pissing on the side of the road. Doesn't have to have anything to do with children, or touching, or sex to be a lifelong registered offender.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Again...
...what does that have to do with the right to keep and bear arms?
If you have a right to life, then you have a right to protect it, yes? If a pedophile no longer has a right to life, then we should take it.
So, in your view, if pedophilia = no more right to self defense and assaulting someone = no more right to self defense, then what else? Grand theft? Arson? You seem to be in favor of perpetual punishment and maybe that is justified, but I still don't see where the purging of a pedophiles record has anything to do with this. Why would anyone want to purge that record???
...what does that have to do with the right to keep and bear arms?
If you have a right to life, then you have a right to protect it, yes? If a pedophile no longer has a right to life, then we should take it.
So, in your view, if pedophilia = no more right to self defense and assaulting someone = no more right to self defense, then what else? Grand theft? Arson? You seem to be in favor of perpetual punishment and maybe that is justified, but I still don't see where the purging of a pedophiles record has anything to do with this. Why would anyone want to purge that record???
DEEKAYPEE8569
Well-Known Member
-------------------------------------------------------
We could toss hypothetical situations around til the cows come home. What I'm saying again is, if Maryland was made a "Shall Issue" state and all who pass a background check were granted a CCW, there would be fewer occurrences of violent crimes. Period
Xaquin44
New Member
'what if' is fun.
It dusk.
Just the right time .... for crime!
I'm leaving work when I hear a rustling of leaves above my head. Fortunatly, I have my trusty 9mm in my equally trusty shoulder holster.
BLAM!
BLAM!
BLAM!
BLAM!
ah.
Ninja.
So this is how the night will play.
Four Ninja lie dead at my feet. Each has an exit wound the size of my fist behind the smoking area that used to be their black hearts.
etc. etc.
I'm pretty sure this is how crime goes down mostly.
Sure you get some real stories sometimes, but this is how I imagine it.
edit: ahaha best top of page ever. I poke fun sure, but the real reason I don't like the idea of an armed public is because most people can't manage to use/understand a turn signal and I feel that a deadly weapon in their hands would be folly.
It dusk.
Just the right time .... for crime!
I'm leaving work when I hear a rustling of leaves above my head. Fortunatly, I have my trusty 9mm in my equally trusty shoulder holster.
BLAM!
BLAM!
BLAM!
BLAM!
ah.
Ninja.
So this is how the night will play.
Four Ninja lie dead at my feet. Each has an exit wound the size of my fist behind the smoking area that used to be their black hearts.
etc. etc.
I'm pretty sure this is how crime goes down mostly.
Sure you get some real stories sometimes, but this is how I imagine it.
edit: ahaha best top of page ever. I poke fun sure, but the real reason I don't like the idea of an armed public is because most people can't manage to use/understand a turn signal and I feel that a deadly weapon in their hands would be folly.
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